Webinar: ‘What I Learned From Interviewing Over 2000 Founders’ – with Andrew Warner of Mixergy

Keith Wolf:

All right, Andrew. So I’m taking this bad boy back over. You’re the professional podcaster, and I’m just a huge fan of yours. And it’s an honor to have you on and I’m going to, as I was kind of telling you before we went live and would do my best, not to gush, I know that doesn’t make for a great interview, but let me introduce myself for folks who haven’t been on one of these before I’m Keith Wolf. I am the managing director of Murray resources. We’re a national recruiting firm here in Houston, Texas. I’m also the CEO of resume spikes and we are a national career coaching and resume writing service. So we’re bringing you today’s webinar. It’s also going to be available for on podcasts, but I love the fact that there are folks here live.

Keith Wolf:

I just think it brings you to energy. That’s great. And excited for you guys to be able to ask Andrew questions. The reason I’m so excited to have Andrew on today is because I have been a listener. It can just podcasts for at least a decade and not only my listener, but many of the tools, folks who work with me know that I love different tools. A lot of them come from Andrew’s show. So acuity scheduling is something that I use, for example, a top towel, a Trustpilot my desk is an autonomous desk that I heard about originally on Andrew show. I made money from Andrew. I was a investor in Shopify, not at the IPO much later, but I, I kept noticing a trend that people on your show kept talking about Shopify as the e-commerce platform, but they were using it.

Keith Wolf:

I thought, okay, I need to look at that. And thank you, Andrew. I did pretty well on that. Not as well as I could have done if I invest earlier, but well so I know, you know, there, there are many folks here who’ve never been introduced to you, and I’m excited to introduce you to this audience and vice versa. You know, Andrew’s podcast I think is, is incredible because he’s got household guests on there. Folks from companies like Airbnb with a pedia, LinkedIn, those founders, but actually find the ones that I’ve never heard of to be even more interesting from verticals platforms. A lot of them have software backgrounds that I’ve never heard of, but there’s always something you can learn. So again, you still have you here, Andrew. I do want to ask you to, to talk about your story. I know, I know you’ve been asked a million times, but this audience, you know, they don’t know about your entrepreneurship background, kind of how you got into this growing up in New York, selling candy as a kid, growing a business at 30 million to kind of start there and we’ll kind of set up how you got to where you are.

Andrew Warner:

Sure. Yeah. The thing about New York city is that you get to see so many people who’ve built empires. I mean, literally right. You get to you get to go to Carnegie hall and wonder why is it called Carnegie hall? Well, it’s this guy, Andrew Carnegie. He was a steel magnet, became the richest man in the world and then, or in the country anyway, and then donated all his money. And you’re walking through a city full of stories like that. And so of course, as a kid, I was moved by it and I, I think I was born entrepreneurial. So yeah, I sold, I sold candy when I was a kid, when it snowed in New York, I would go out and shovel my neighbors driveways for money. And the older people loved paying us, which I didn’t know. I always thought I had to be persuasive and I’d get so anxious about it.

Andrew Warner:

Meanwhile, first of all, they didn’t want to shovel snow for 20 bucks. They were happy a kid would do it. And number two, they wanted to support kids who were as entrepreneurial as they were, when they were growing up. And so that’s how I expressed it. And then I graduated from school and I got a little depressed because everybody was moving on to jobs. All these people were like entrepreneurial, like me. They were never going to go and settle down in a certain way. And they just got these great jobs that I admired and I thought what’s wrong with me. And thankfully, I just heard other people who are like me, who are starting companies. And I said, I think I could do what they’re doing. It’s not for everyone, but it feels like it is for me. And so I started an online, a greeting card company and people would come to our site and send a greeting card to like five of their friends.

Andrew Warner:

We’re not just talking holiday greeting cards, which is the way it started. It turns out the greeting card companies really do make up holidays. And we definitely did too. We would invent these holidays like macaroni, Mondays, or macaroni, whatever. And then we would email our list and say, you should send your friends of macaroni Monday, a greeting card. And people would, because they’re looking for a reason to touch in with their friends and to say hi, and they wouldn’t just send it to one the way that they would take a regular greeting card and send it to one person, they would send it and then say, well, as long as I’m addressing it, let’s just send it to five other people in the family. And boom, five of the people in the family found out about this breeding card. They’d come to my site to pick it up and to read the macaroni Monday’s greeting card.

Andrew Warner:

I say, well, you know what, maybe I should send a macaroni Monday greeting card to my friends too. And then they send it out. And the thing just took off. We did hundreds of thousands of these greeting cards going out a day. And then and the money was coming in from advertising and then a little bit of premium services. And then I just got so exhausted from it. So we’d taken it to 30 plus million dollars and, and that meant just a couple of million dollars a month. And then suddenly the internet just was having a setback and our revenue went to half a million dollars a month. And I said, I’m a failure, only half a million a month. What a loser, what happened? And I got so exhausted from it that I I sold it. And then I took some time and just rode my bike on the Pacific coast highway in Southern California.

Andrew Warner:

And I learned to relax a little bit and to have fun and to go to Europe and travel. And and then I realized, Hey, you know what? I was kind of ridiculous. Of course half-a-million was much more than I thought it was good business at the end. Maybe there’s something that I know and maybe there’s something I could do to help. So I just started volunteering to help as many people as I could. I used to work for Dale Carnegie. And so I went back and I volunteered for Dale Carnegie. Again, that’s the author of how to win friends and influence people has a company called Dale Carnegie and associates where they help people give better speeches and connect with people in a meaningful way. So I started, I volunteered there and then I ended up doing my own interviews on, on my site and then on a podcast.

Andrew Warner:

And this thing just took off because I had real entrepreneurial experience and I was interviewing people like the founders of Airbnb and all the people that Keith mentioned. And they like being in a conversation with another entrepreneur who is like them. They liked having an audience of real entrepreneurs listening and following up and building and doing Keith did, which is using their products, investing in their businesses, being, being like more than a listener and a, an a skeptical audience member, the way they are everywhere else, but being really engaged and I think took off. And and that’s what mixer G is a place where now over 2000 entrepreneurs have come on to tell their stories, to teach courses, to be a part of the community. And then COVID hit. And I wasn’t allowed to do scotch night in San Francisco. And I said, you know what, truthfully, maybe I could use a little bit of more time away and just be a little chill.

Andrew Warner:

And so on my dining room table, I just sat with the iPad that I’ve got here in front of me. And every day I started writing out all the techniques that I used to have these meaningful conversations. And it started out because there are so many people who complained about having zoom conversations. It sucked. And I said, no, you don’t understand how great it can be. I do zoom. All my interviews are on zoom. Not only is it great for me, there’s an audience of tons of people who are listening. Conversations could be really good remotely. And so I started just writing away and saying, here’s how you could do it. Here’s how it gets personal. Here’s how you can do it in a way that feels more meaningful. And if you do it right, you actually get fired up from doing from doing zoom calls or any kind of a conversation.

Andrew Warner:

And before long, I had this book that we’re now about to publish, it’s called stop asking questions. And the reason I call it stop asking questions is because one of the things that I learned as an interviewer as a conversationalist is that everything that we thought was right about conversations. Like if you want to take an interest, ask people questions, it actually is annoying. And so I started just recording all the things that worked. And the reason I knew it worked is I transcribed all of my interviews and I could go in and see when something worked and see that it worked multiple times. And I could know this is a technique that worked for me. And then I went back over COVID while we’re just sitting at home, I hired a coach. I said, I’m going to go back and look at conversations throughout history and prove using cause YouTube, basically as everything prove that this is the way it works for other people too. And then that became my life for that COVID year. And now I’ve got a book about how to have better conversations.

Keith Wolf:

One of the things I find interesting is, I mean, listening to your interviews, hearing about your past, and you’re very open about the fact that you were sort of awkward. You know, we, weren’t a natural conversationalist early on, you went to business dinners, you were afraid to talk. You even mentioned that at times you were afraid to talk to girls, you know, and you, you sort of went on a spree where you decided for six days out of the week, you’re going to go out and meet girls. So, you know, now you do it for a living. So how did you get from that point to here? And I, you know, in both can relate to that because there’s probably somewhere where they want to be, but they don’t visualize or know how to get there. What’s what was your process for getting from where you started? It was awkward conversation as to where you are now

Andrew Warner:

Started by recognizing the problem. I graduated Magna laude from NYU business school. I was so obsessed with business classes that I would study them endlessly. I would literally be the person who didn’t go out to parties and would fall asleep in the library studying literally no exaggeration multiple times. That’s how obsessed I was. I loved it. I was so glad to actually be there taking those classes. And then I would see these punks who would make tons of money because they got to work on wall street. And for me, tons of money was like 20, $30 an hour, more $50 an hour working on wall street know just, just regular people like me. And then I went and I got a job and I got paid nothing because I didn’t have the guts to ask for money. And Stephanie Winston, who I worked for was a shark, recognized it.

Andrew Warner:

And she just assumed the clothes said, okay. So you’re going to be working for me as an intern, making no money. And I go, Hey, I said, all right, I still am making enough money on with my little side projects. I don’t need the money from this. I do need experience. Let me get experience. So Stephanie Winston basically gives me experience making copies endlessly, because what she’s doing is constantly selling our services to get more of these high net worth individuals, to sign up, to have her manage their money. And so I’m making copies, sending out letters, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, nothing happening nowhere. Nowhere I’m going nowhere. Good. And finally, she says, you know, Andrew, you’ve been working here a long time. Why don’t you come with me to breakfast? And we’re going to meet potential clients. We’re going to wind them and don’t the whining, but we’re going to dine them and have them love us.

Andrew Warner:

And then they’re going to sign up and work with us. You’re going to see how this works. I go, I don’t know how to do that. All right. So I go in and I sit down with her at this breakfast and there’s like someone from television who, I don’t know, she’s fricking God to sit down with her. It was Jack Lemmon. Jacqueline’s dead. I don’t even know if she got him to sit there to be like in her sphere, but she’s getting all these high net worth individuals. Most of them are not on television. They just own really nice businesses in Manhattan and she’s talking to them and I go, this is amazing. How is she doing it? And I could see that she could close deals with them. And she’s nudging me like this. Like, come on, get in the fricking conversation. And I don’t know what to say to them. And so I’m looking down at my, at my food and I keep cutting it and pretending that it takes so long to eat it. And finally, the conversation is over. And I could see that I disgusted her the next day. I said, I didn’t really contribute enough to the conversation. She goes, you got that right?

Andrew Warner:

And nothing bad happened, but nothing good happened either. I was never again, invited to another one of those dinners. And all I was set to do was be the person. Then who copied, who did Excel spreadsheets, who made no money from her? And I realized I wasn’t very good to her. She could get a spreadsheet person from anywhere. She doesn’t need me. I have to figure this out. If I really wanna do well in business, if I really wanna do well in life, I watch all these people just get ahead. And I was going nowhere, even though I saw their grades, they D they thought accounting. They would walk into accounting class. And if you ask them, what is accounting class? They’d say it’s about taxes, but it’s not right. Accounting is like making sure that you don’t understand how much money you have in your company and losers.

Andrew Warner:

And this is the thing that they were, they were absolute winners in this whole game. So that’s when I started to obsess on it. That’s when I started to say, I’m going to get good. I read Dale. Carnegie’s how to win friends and influence people. And then I took it a step further. I heard that his office was in Midtown Manhattan. So I went and knocked on their door. And I said, can I work for you for free? I said, why so? So I can learn from you. I read the book. It really helped me. I’m using how to win friends and influence people. I’m getting relationship, but I want to see how you all do it. They said, okay, come work for us for free, but we can’t not pay you take one of our classes and other training. So I got to work with them and I got to learn from them.

Andrew Warner:

And that is the thing that Keith, once you get good at this, once you learn some skills about how to get to know people, you can’t wait to do it. If Stephanie Winston called me up tonight and said, tomorrow morning at five, o’clock forget five at three 30 in the morning. I need to have breakfast with people. Can you want and dine them? You can be sure by the first of all I say yes, because I’m going to enjoy it. And number two, you can be sure that they will love us by the end of that breakfast. And we will, we, me included will close deals because it’s fun when you know how to do it, when you don’t know how to do it, it absolutely sucks. And so if you want to know, what is it that made me want to have all these conversations? Literally thousands of conversations with the world, watching written on the internet for the rest of history and who knows when it’s, because I know how to do it. And when you know how to do it, well, you love it. That’s, that’s the reason. If you,

Keith Wolf:

You expect it to be a career, if you expect it to be doing it this long, when you started it off and we’ve always yet,

Andrew Warner:

You know what, it was just, I want to learn how to, not, how to be better at my work. I wanted to meet people who are steps ahead of me, or had different experiences and learn from them. And that’s where it started. I had this gift that you could just connect to a microphone, to a computer. You know, this might cost like 150 bucks. It just makes an impression that it’s 150 bucks. You have this, and you have a zoom account. You can talk to anybody on the planet, basically. Right. Billionaires will put aside other time, just so they could have a conversation with me because I got a mic. They think the freaking mic is that impressive, right? We’re now at a time when people are open, I don’t know if they’ll close up again, but they’re open now. Not just to interviews, they’re open to one-on-one conversations, to mentorship, to bringing people up.

Andrew Warner:

It’s it’s amazing. So I just started it so that I could do that. The time I fell in love with it was when I talked to Roslyn Resnick. This is a woman I’d done business with. For years, she sold a ton of our ads. When I was doing the online greeting card company. Remember I was doing hundreds of thousands of greeting cards sends a day. You don’t make money from letting people send free greeting cards on your site. You make money from advertising. She sent us literally millions of dollars in advertising. I worked with her for years. I’d been to her house. We’d been to breakfast. She’d been to my office. I’ve been to her office. We worked hand in hand so that she could sell my ads and help me grow my business. And then she bought a piece of, of our business.

Andrew Warner:

When I was ready to exit, I then said, can I interview you? I need another interview for my site. She goes, yeah. So we recorded this interview. And this woman who I had known for years suddenly opens up in a new way to me. I see how she started. I see where she got her idea. I see the roundabout way that she did it. I got to know her better in that hour than I known her in the five plus years that we’ve done business together. And I said to my wife, we’re living now. She’s my wife. She was my girlfriend. At the time I remember turning to her and saying, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. I want to have more conversations like this. I feel like there are people that I can see. They’re great. I don’t know why.

Andrew Warner:

They’re great. I can see, they’d be fun to get to know. I don’t know why I can’t get to know them. That’s the way I felt before now. I know why. They’re great. I get to have conversations with them. Think about that. There are people in every one of our lives, Charles, Kim, Susan, you’ve got people in your life that you know, are amazing. How do you tap into them? How do you get to understand who they are? How do you connect with them? How do you know what their excellence is? And more importantly, how do you get them to be at a place where if you’re in trouble or you need something, you can contact them and have them go. Yeah, absolutely. I’ll be there. The interview is there. When you’re talking to someone for an hour, they’re staying at your face. They’re telling you the deepest parts of their lives. They feel connected to you in a way that they don’t with a lot of other people in their lives. And yes, Charles is right marrying their daughter. Great way to do it, but only marry one person at a time. And Olivia will not let me marry anyone else.

Keith Wolf:

And of starting a new project. I mean, there’s, there’s early days. You don’t have much traction. You start picking it up. I mean, how did you start getting traction? I know Seth Godin was someone you reached out to, and to be on your, on your find your podcast and sort of a part two to that is you have a very distinct style, right? And so when did you develop was it deliberate and, and sorry to go on with this question, but one of the questions that just makes Andrew famous is what’s your revenue. And he asks it off the bat. Usually the first question, even if he knows someone’s not going to give the answer, it’s very shocking sort of question. If you haven’t heard one of his interviews before, because it’s just very abrupt. It’s right early on. And so kind of a two part question there. I mean, the early days getting traction and developing your own style and, and, and they use still to this day,

Andrew Warner:

My, my early days getting traction came from finding the helpers. It’s really true. What Mr. Rogers, Fred Rogers said in a typical, in a difficult situation, look for the helpers. And there are people who are natural helpers. We can talk about Seth Goden has a great career. He’s a marketing teacher, right? Author. When you’re in the marketing world, you could be as much of a sleazebag as you want. And people will respect you more for it because you’re somebody who’s stuff. And if you’re sleazy and you’re getting more sales and they respect you because you’re getting more sales and you have the guts to be sleazier than they are. And do people respect you, right? He’s the opposite. He’s just somebody who wants to help. And so you reach out to Seth goat and the way that I did, and I say, I’ve got this brand new thing.

Andrew Warner:

People do not fully believe in it. They don’t even know what podcasting is. Would you come and do an interview with me? The fact that it was new, that people didn’t know what podcasting was, was more of an attraction. The fact that I was working hard with people, we never heard of doing interviews before I asked him, gave him a lot of confidence to come and do it. I asked him years later, he was also on my thousandth interview. And I said, did you just say yes, because you only liked to help people. And you said, no, because you were doing something innovative and different to look for the helpers who also have an eye for the thing that’s new and different. And today we have that, the innovators are the people who are like Robert Reece. When I knocked on the door of Dale, Carnegie and associates, and I said, I want to work for you for free.

Andrew Warner:

They immediately never saw this thing before they immediately knew you should go and work for Robert Reece. He was the person who would come in every Monday and say, let’s toss out the whole Dale Carnegie book and see if we had to start fresh. What’s the new approach that we would take. Let’s teach that to our students. If that’s a better approach, they are the helpers who are willing to experiment and they’re out there. And the truth is you have to reach out to a lot of people, but if you can narrow yourself down to people who you see are especially different, especially willing to experiment, you’re going to do really well.

Keith Wolf:

And then you’re your own style, right? So you, you start early on and I mean, I have to listen to your it’s, like, it’s like boiling a frog, probably your style has evolved. And I probably haven’t even noticed it because I just listened so often versus if I went back and listened to the early days. But how has, how do you feel your style has evolved and kind of, where does it come from? Because you’re, you’re direct, but never rude. And you get people to open up in a way that most podcasts are don’t. So how did you develop that style?

Andrew Warner:

It was, it came from a deep need. I think one of the problems that I had with Dale Carnegie’s and a lifelong change is because I read that book and worked for Dale Carnegie associates. One of the challenges was Dale Carnegie and everyone else, when it comes to conversation, says, if you want to have, if you want to be a good conversationalist, take interest in other people. And I got really good at that until one day I was on the train with this guy, Michael, who I saw was interested in comic books. And I said, oh, what kind of comic books do you have? And then I only had to ask one or two other questions, and the dude was off like even after the first he was off. And then he talked to me, if you know, New York to get from Brooklyn, to Queens on the train, you have to go from Brooklyn to sorry to get from Manhattan to my place.

Andrew Warner:

We have to go from Manhattan through Brooklyn, to to Queens on the train. We’re talking three freaking burrows. And I’m listening to this guy. Tell me about comic books that I can care less about comic books. I read books about real people, biographies. I have no problem with comic books. I think they’re great. I got some for my kids here because I like them. I believe that they’re great literature. It wasn’t for me, but I was dying, listening to this. And then I said, you know, what, if I’m going to continue doing this, I can’t be this self less person who only cares about other people. It’s gotta be my own interest too. And that grounding of what am I genuinely curious about that the other person is going through has gone through has helped me through anything. And so I was invited to this venture capitalist party in Southern California.

Andrew Warner:

It was Clearstone ventures and I get into their office. And it’s a bunch of people, I don’t know, in some ways it’s intimidating in other ways, it’s boring. And I met this guy and at the time, Olivia and I were just like, seriously in our relationship. And we were wondering, do we live in Los Angeles or not? And I started talking to him. I said, I’m in a relationship with my girlfriend. We are probably going to get married and have kids. And we’re thinking, should we live here? We think it should, sorry, that’s her actually, we’re in this Airbnb. And she’s at the thing. And I say to him, we’re going to get we’re probably going to get married and we’re probably going to have kids. And we’re probably going to live here in Los Angeles. What do you think of it as a dad?

Andrew Warner:

And he says, you know, this whole, it goes from talking to me about his business and his career and the investments that he made to say, Andrew, I don’t think you should, you should live here. I said, why? He says, my son knows about cars that no child should know about. He asks me why we only have a full-time maid and not a live and made like his friends. There’s always a sense of competition here about the superficial. And if you let your child live here, you’re going to have to battle it a lot. And then he got really personal about what was going on in his life with his relationship with his wife and his kids with all that. And that was a really important conversation for, for me. He didn’t, it wasn’t just about his interest. It was about his experiences, his interest in my needs. And when you do that, people can see the sincerity in your eyes. And when you tap into what people love and are excited about, but also say, I need this knowledge from you because I’m really trying to use it. There’s no better thing in life. People will, people will give up so much to be able to support that. So that’s what I focused on.

Keith Wolf:

I mean, I noticed at some point that you, you made effort to be more vulnerable on your podcasts and I, and maybe it was a, it was a selfish approach because you want other people to open up or maybe you felt like that’s a better technique or, or, you know, what was,

Andrew Warner:

It was instinct. It was instinct. And I hated it. So I’m doing this these interviews and I always want to get better and I I’m not into, into Hollywood, but I don’t, as anyone out there heard of inside the actor’s studio. I wonder if it’s something that people still, you know, inside the actors studio, if anyone else know it. So inside the actors studio, yes. Interviews on stage Charles knows it to meet her, knows it. Great. You know, it, it’s this guy he’s sitting on stage at a desk with an audience interview of students interviewing actors. And he gets them off their script where they’re not promoting, they’re talking personally about their lives and they’re crying. So I go, I want to know from them, how do they do it? So I get an introduction to the producer of inside the actor’s studio.

Andrew Warner:

His name is Jeremy Kerrigan. I said, Jeremy, I want to improve. And I think Jeremy blew me off. I said, I’ll pay you. I’m not just looking for weekly and I’ll pay you. He goes fine. I pay him once a week on Monday. He and I went through my transcripts and we studied everything. What questions worked, what questions didn’t he read every word of the three interviews that I’d done the week before we had suggestions for what to try next week, we had an understanding of what works. So you don’t just beat yourself up and go, nothing’s working or take for granted what is working, but you’re aware of what’s working because we wrote down the techniques of work in conversation and he gave me techniques to try. And and that really helped me become a much better interviewer. And one of the things that I, I brought to his attention was I said, so Jeremy, I feel like such a loser.

Andrew Warner:

He goes, why? I say, I see everybody on Instagram, everybody on YouTube, other podcasts, or talk themselves up. They’re the greatest person at this thing. And that’s why they have to do a podcast. And meanwhile, I myself got adjust this camera I myself. And I’m constantly talking about where I failed and where I’m struggling and all that. And I happened to know that my, my numbers are better than some of these people. So why am I constantly putting myself down? And Jeremy just ignored me and I could see in the webcam, they were just looking down. I go, why am I even paying this guy? He probably doesn’t want to work with somebody on like this. And maybe I just alerted to him to Dwight. I’m a loser. And he should go back to working for a, just inside the actors studio and leaving me alone.

Andrew Warner:

And then he looks up and he says, Andrew, double-click on my face. So in Google docs, if you double click on someone’s face, you go to where they are in the dark. So I go there and go see here at the top. You talk about your problem. Go, yeah, that’s what I’m talking about. That’s what sucks. He goes. Now he squirrels and goes double click on my face. Again. I double click on his face again and scroll down further. It goes, I see how she’s telling you about the promise she has with her mom and how that is one of the driving forces of her life to show her mom. I said, oh yeah. So he goes, Andrew, you get vulnerable. And you then feel this sense of vulnerability, right? When you’re being vulnerable, it’s natural to feel that. And then you expect that the other person is going to immediately tell you about the pain in their lives, but things don’t work that way.

Andrew Warner:

It’s not a transactional experience. It’s not like buying a falafel on Bleecker street in Manhattan. It’s not like you pay up money. Now you need the falafel today. Right now, the second you’re being vulnerable, you creating an atmosphere where someone can then share, share with you and guess what they often do share. But it happens later on. And you’re not noticing it because you don’t connect the dots like we’re doing here. And he says, sometimes people don’t and that’s okay, this is not a transaction. Just let it happen. And so that’s what that’s, what’s made me feel much more comfortable doing it. Now there’s a company that sells a software to salespeople. It’s called people.ai, Johnny Chan, who does training for their sales people on staff invited me to teach these techniques that I’ve used and wrote in my book, stop asking questions to his salespeople.

Andrew Warner:

You said there’s a lot here that salespeople can learn from what you’ve done as an interviewer. So I go in and I teach it and I ask the salespeople, have you used any of these techniques? And if you do even afterwards, email me and tell me. So we’ve been talking. One of the people said, Hey, Andrew, here’s what I do. That helps because I need as a sales person to know the problem with my client, he goes, I tried asking my clients for problems and they won’t tell me because it’s proprietary information. They don’t wanna make the company look bad. They don’t wanna make themselves look bad and so on. So he goes, here’s what I tried. So as early in the conversation, I go, you know what? I’m a little bit bothered here because we don’t do. And then he says, I share one thing that we’re not doing well, because we don’t get everything.

Andrew Warner:

Right. Right. We’re a great company for salt. We don’t do everything. So I share it. And then later on, when I ask people for what’s not working for their sales team, what’s not working for their team. They’re more likely to share with me. He goes, I tell them our problem and get vulnerable. And really it’s a little scary to admit outside the company, what the problem is, but ultimately nothing that has ever happened. And they then come back and share with me. Now, that’s one of the things that you have to learn as a conversationalist. We think it’s all about asking questions is an interview where we think it’s all about taking interest. If you can just sprinkle in some of your problems, some of your challenges, you’ll see people open up about theirs and you’re going to get to know them better. And they’re going to feel a better connection to you because they’ve done it. That is the magic.

Keith Wolf:

And it’s not as a threat. I mean, listening to you now, but also throughout your interviews, you’re so open to coaching. You seek out coaching to improve, but most people don’t do that. Most people aren’t vulnerable enough to even

Andrew Warner:

Maybe they’re better. Maybe they’re better people than me. I’ll tell you, I’m going to admit to you that this comes from a place of problem of, of, of failure. If you go back to my interviews, you can see that I’ve gotten better at conversations over the years that I’ve created a bond. But Keith, if you go back to my early interviews, you’ll see that several times. I said, I’m writing a book and it’s never happened. Like what happened to this book that Andrew was writing five years ago, 10 years ago? Did I miss it? What happened? What happened was Andrew was trying to write it by himself because I thought writing a book is sit down and writing over the COVID break. What I did was I said, I stink at this. And then I went back to I used to do these coaching sessions where whenever I learned something about myself, I’d write it in a doc.

Andrew Warner:

I went back and I said, what, what did I write in this doc? And I realized, one of the things that I don’t do well is work on my own, but I do really well. If I work with someone else, I said, screw it. Who do I pay to work with me on this writing? And what I literally was looking for was someone who would do screen share with me and watch me write, and then give me guidance. I couldn’t find that person, but I did find this woman Mary’s son. She is an editor for penguin publishing. She’s worked with a lot of the best writers. And I, I hired her and I asked her if she would sit with me and she said, no, I’m not going to do screen share with you. She said, I could check in with you. I said, can you do it every week?

Andrew Warner:

I need you to read my work, give me assignments. And then, and then also give me some guidance. And she did, and it was incredibly helpful. And then we upped it to twice a week from once a week. And that’s the only way that I can work, that I need somebody else to be there. And so if you said to me, Andrew, sit down and go through your transcripts. You’re gonna learn a lot. I can’t really do it. But if you were to say to me, Andrew, can we go through your transcripts together so that we can learn something I’m there and I’ll get it done. I’m much more social. I think that most people are.

Keith Wolf:

Yeah. I mean, another tool that I learned about from your interview is focused mate, is that the name where you, you sit across? I mean, the concept is, sounds crazy, but I tried it out after the interview. And it’s really interesting. I mean, you literally sit on a video with somebody else around the world and you can watch each other or not. And you’re both working and it’s sort of, you know, this accountability, right. That you’re going to get done, what you say you’re going to get done. And it works and people pay

Andrew Warner:

No doubt about it. I think that we in America have very much about self-help self-improvement self thought ever put yourself up by your bootstraps. Maybe it works for some people. I think for a lot of other people, we work better in groups. And for me, yes, that does mean if I’m sitting at home, there’s a good chance that I’m going to end up doing the wrong thing, hitting a link to go check out Twitter so that I can respond to my Twitter messages. And then I end up getting sucked into Twitter. But if there’s someone who’s watching me do it, it’s much more awkward to do that. It’s much more awkward to tune away, especially at the beginning of these Focusmate sessions, you say I’m going to be working on clearing out my inbox. What are you working on? Great. Let’s do it. I’m going to be writing for the next hour.

Andrew Warner:

What are you working on? Great. Let’s do it. And then sometimes we just watch each other. So you can see that I’m not getting up and doing other things. The times we watch each other’s screens and it’s much more productive. And that’s something also that, that came to me from working in an office with someone when I was working on my own, I did not do very well when I hired my first person at that greeting card company. And she sat in the office with me, knowing that she’s watching what I’m doing somehow kept me more in flow. It helps

Keith Wolf:

Let’s talk about your podcast process a little bit. Then I want to get into some of the takeaways. I mean, you’ve done 2000 plus interviews. I know you’ve learned a ton from the different folks that you’ve interviewed and let’s get into that. But I, you know, you, you posted on Twitter, you know, asking me anything I’ve done 2000 plus interviews and people had really good questions and a lot of it, they want to know about your process. And you want to know how do you get your guests? What do you do before an interview to prepare? What do you do after an interview? Are you do, are you now best friends with the person you interviewed or do you never talk to them again? You go to dinner, do you, I mean, all of that behind the scenes would be really interesting to kind of know about your process, the podcast.

Andrew Warner:

You wanna know how I get, which one should I start, start with.

Keith Wolf:

Let’s start with how you get your guests and then how you prepare once you do.

Andrew Warner:

Sure. And by the way, Marcia, thank you saying your willingness to show vulnerability as your strength. It really is something that takes a lot of personal strength sucks. Sometimes it’s never not paid off. And when I said I have trouble hiring, I remember Cameron, Cameron, Harold said, let me talk to you. Let me talk you through it. We can do it in private. We can do it publicly. It’s just, you always end up with support as long as you’re not so wishy washy about it, where you’re not admitting it, or you’re such a downer that everything stinks and nobody wants to be around that. But if you say here’s something I’m wrestling with, here’s the thing. I’m people care. Okay. So how do I get my guests there? Lots of ways to do it one way is I look for motivated moments.

Andrew Warner:

A motivated moment is when you suddenly see Robert DeNiro who is incredibly shy, like very Mrs. On camera, right? Sit down for an interview with the talk show host, who will laugh at him for being so shy and reserved and make fun of him. Right. And he’s right, right. Why does he do it? Because he’s got a movie out and why does he need to do it? Because he’s motivated to get people to watch it because he’s committed to promoting this thing. And so he’s sitting down and doing it. Now, actors do that all the time, but it’s not just actors authors. I’m doing now all kinds of I’m gonna, I’m about to do the reason that I have to end this thing in 22 minutes is I’m doing a clubhouse. I felt clubhouse died. Somebody says, I’ve got a clubhouse. Will you join my club?

Andrew Warner:

I go, yeah. Motivated moment. Yes. Is it going to be recorded now? You know, it’s clubhouse. Great. I’ll do it. We’ll there’ll be great. I’ll do it. Let’s say yes, because I’m in a motivated moment, right? When you’re in motivated moments, people are looking for that. So motivated moment. You can find authors on Amazon’s upcoming lists. You can go to tech meme and see which entrepreneur recently raised money. You can go for those times when people are motivated. Now, for me, it’s when they have something to promote. If you are looking to get to know people outside of interviews, you can also equally find motivated moments. Let me tell you another motivated moment that most people do not consider. If you want to advance yourself in your career, the thing you should look for is an entrepreneur who sold her company. And now the lockup period is in place, right?

Andrew Warner:

It’s been a year lockup period is in place. She’s bored to tears, but she’s locked in the job. And she’s trying to figure out what to do next. What does she have to give? What does she want out of the world? She has to give advice on how she sold her company. What does she want from the world? Give me a new energy. Let me create new ideas. They’re at the point where they cannot stop talking about it. I was just talking to the founder of iCracked. This is a company that repairs iPhone screens, right? They’ll bring someone to your door. Lorraine jobs. From what I understand is one of the investors in the company, he sold his company to his insurance company. We’re going out, kayaking here, always talking. I was like, what’s new. What can he do? Right. He’s in a place where he can tell you what’s worked because he’s got advices.

Andrew Warner:

The store is closed. Please. Also the place where he’s looking for new ideas, look for those motivated moments. And people will be more likely to say, yes, that’s number one. Number two, be consistent. People sometimes just want to know, is this BS, are you really sticking around or not? Am I just going to be the person that you’re experimenting with? And then you drop out or not? What I’ve done. If you look at my emails is I’ve sent emails to people asking me to do an interview. And then when they say, no, I will come back and hit reply on that message. Six months later, if I, if they are not saying yesterday, sometimes it’s because something else is going on in their lives. Who knows? They’re getting divorced. They’re, they’re going through a midlife crisis. They’re deciding that they, God knows what they’re feeling insecure, who knows.

Andrew Warner:

But if you come back and you come back and you come back, this is really powerful stuff to be able to do that guy Kawasaki. Does anyone remember guy Kawasaki? He wasn’t an author famous in the startup space, right? Who’s hard to get as a guest. I emailed him so many times before he finally said yes. Right? And I would keep hitting reply and hitting reply and hitting reply. That’s the answer. So motivated moments hit persistence. I’ll say one other thing that’s tactical that I think seems a little bit smaller. It is smaller than all these other issues, but it’s worth mentioning. Keep your request short. If you look at the best tools for sending out offers it’s tools like something there’s software called Yesmail. It’s used by sales people, and there’s tons of software like this to send out an email.

Andrew Warner:

And then if they don’t get a respond to send out a follow-up and a fault, right? Yes, mail is nothing but persistent salespeople asking for stuff that they should get no response to. When they analyze the emails that get a response, they found that shorter emails get much more response and longer emails, shorter emails work. Now I can tell you that I can give you statistics. I can tell you don’t take Andrew’s word, go fricking Google. And the thing you’ll see, tons of people say this instill people who see the evidence will write long emails. You know why? Because it comes from a place of insecurity. It comes from a place of going, can I, can I do this interview with you? And by the way, I’m also doing this. And I’m a big fan of that. And also these other people did it and here’s what it’s going to include.

Andrew Warner:

And he resolved that. And by the way, like, no you’re being insecure, just come out and ask. They don’t even actually, I would give him too much credit by saying they come out and ask Barry the request deepen in a long email. So nobody even knows what they’re asking for because they’re showing secure, be clear, ask for what you want, tell them why they should say yes, tell them what’s going to happen. And I also say this be specific. So say, can I interview you on and then give them a date. Can I interview at, let them just say no, that date doesn’t work for me. Now you shifted the conversation to the date and time of the interview. Not will they do it or not.

Keith Wolf:

I mean, Steve jobs was sort of famous for responding to people in one line and it’s like a race to see you last with these, with these busy CEOs. That’s great advice. I do want to know about more about the process, but I don’t want to, I don’t want to get through this and not talk about what you’ve learned from your guests. And so we can come back to the process a little bit, but you know, interviewing 2000 guests, some of the, you know, the top entrepreneurs in the world, let’s start with, what would some people be surprised to know about them? And let me give you an example from my world. You know, I have a lot of world-class speakers that we invite and they’re used to speaking in front of thousands of people, almost to a person they’re terrified when they, when they go on and speak at our events.

Keith Wolf:

I’ve had somebody who we couldn’t find because she was in the bathroom and she wouldn’t come out of the bathroom right before she went on stage. And this is, she gets paid tens of thousands of dollars to speak. I think out of all the interviews or all the, all the speakers we’ve had, one person said they never get nervous and I’ll take her word for it, but everyone else says they still get nervous. So for you kind of what is, what have been some of the surprises folks that you, that you’ve interviewed? People might be surprised to hear

Andrew Warner:

The stuff that they’d be that I be that I’m surprised by as the stuff that they don’t want to mention in public. There really is this sense of mission. That’s honestly there. I really want to change the world. They really do believe they want to change a world. They really do want to have an impact. They care a lot about money to the degree that you don’t see until you get to know them in private. So and where, where it shows up is you can see when you talk to them, they really are. Mission-Driven when you invest in them, you can see when they start to aim for more of that money. And I mean, things like they’ll email and say, well I need you to authorize this because I’m going to borrow money from the company and go buy a house. Well, what are you going to do?

Andrew Warner:

Right? Like last minute, before they sell the company, they then end up with this amazing deal for themselves so that they can actually cash out a little bit. Right. Does it mean that the investors won’t get money? Yeah. But that’s what it is. That’s, that’s the way to right. There’s you see little things like and the reason I say this is not to be cynical, but to say I love relationships. I love conversations. Let’s get to know people, but also let’s be grounded in the reality that dollars and cents matter. We’re not just here to live on a commune together. Communes rarely work. Let’s love each other. Genuinely let’s care about our own interests. Genuinely. Let’s be open with the people we’re talking about, about our interests in our needs, gen genuinely. And if we can do all that genuinely and give the other person an opportunity to have a genuine conversation with us, we’re going to have a solid relationship that matters, that really matters. And that, that is not based on this, this happy clappy lie, but based on something that survives the test of time, I’m here for you. You’re here for me and I care about my interests and you care about yours.

Keith Wolf:

And you’ve had people come on the show who ended up being, you know, huge successes and some folks, you know, end up being failures. And sometimes those are the best stories. But when you look at those who end up being enormous successes by, you know, in terms of financially, you know, having the access, having IPO’s and building big businesses, is there some sort of common thread? I mean, would you be able to in any way predict those who go on to do that?

Andrew Warner:

I don’t think I could. I think you’re seeing that the best of the people don’t make great predictions, right? You even the top venture capital firms are not enough predicting a hundred percent, which is disappointing. It means that there’s no, there’s no way to know if you’re going to really fully make it in this space anyway, right? If there’s, there’s not a clear path. I remember reading this book by Roger Dawson. When I was in college about how he said, if you want to be a brain surgeon, there’s a path it’s clear. It makes sense. It’s not easy. You have to put in a lot of work and you may not be able to do the work, but you know what you need to do, what school you need to go to, what accomplishments, if you want to be an entrepreneur there isn’t that clear path there.

Andrew Warner:

Isn’t a clear, nobody knows what you’re about to invent. And so that’s a, that’s a, that’s a big challenge. But if I had to say, what’s one thing that they’re, that the people who are more predictably successful do it’s, they focus on problems. I mean, genuinely focus on problems to the point where they notice them and then they do something about them. And so that goes for the founders of Airbnb who are so big about going into the homes of the people who are listing on Airbnb and then asking them what problems do you have? And then hearing, well, what you want to do is just rent. Their famous story is that Barry Manilow’s drummer was listing his room on Airbnb. But when they went to talk to him and live in him, he said, you know, the problem I have is not that when I’m here, I can’t like make money off this one bedroom, but when I’m not here and I’m on tour, my house is sitting empty and I’d love to be able to make money from that.

Andrew Warner:

And they see the problem of spending money on a New York apartment and traveling outside. And that feels like a waste. And so they solved it. They saw the problem by talking to their customers of these images on the side of too small. I’m trying to get a sense of what’s this person’s home look like and realizing, oh, we’ve got to go bigger to solve the problem. It’s the founder of kayak who said, you know what? In the early days of the internet, people have no problem with searching on United and then searching on American and then Expedia and all these other sites to see where the best prices and they accepted that there’s some airlines that won’t be on any of the search engines. And he said, well, that’s a problem that they’re accepting. The problem is an even bigger problem. And it’s a bigger opportunity.

Andrew Warner:

He goes, you know what I’m going to do. I’m going to scrape these airlines, screw their terms of service. I’m going to scrape all their data. I’m going to put it into one search engine. I’m going to solve the problem for the customer. And he did that. And kayak ended up becoming a huge successful company. He’s so into this, that in his spare time, he solves problems to give you an example of it. One of the problems that he had was he wants to call up a bank. You know, you know, you can put in millions in a bank and when you want to get to talk to a person, it’s a pain in the to even get through. They will not like make it easy for you to go in. And so he said, there’s gotta be a way if you know what to do on the phone tree, like what numbers to press, you can get through to a human being.

Andrew Warner:

So we created a site called get human, where you could contribute to the Wiki and say, if you want to get to chase, hit start a zero star, zero star, zero star. I had to go through chase. They told me anyway, it’s become this bigger and bigger operation where he now has computers that dial up chase and call up all these other companies. And just sit on hold so that when you and I have a problem where I just need to talk to a human being to solve this problem at United airlines, he has a computer that already dialed up. I give them my phone number. He connects me with them and boom, problem solved. So problem solving, as you think is the one thing that they have in common.

Keith Wolf:

Yeah, I’ve heard of that. Didn’t know that was him. That no same, same person started it. Yeah. That’s crazy. The you know, I’m curious, so you’ve done 2000 interviews. You’ve talked to so many folks. I mean, what would you do differently in your own business? Going back to the $30 million business? I mean, what changes would you make? Would you have solved? Would you have stayed in it? What do you do differently?

Andrew Warner:

I think I would have, I think I should have invested more in relationships and I’ll tell you why we did over $30 million in sales. There were companies that needed that revenue, but ha they had high stock market value, low revenue. We could have contributed to their revenue instantly and then taking shares in the business, which would have been great for everyone. They get higher revenue, which increases their stock price. I get a stock that’s now increased, hopefully with a floor on it. That would have been helpful. Those types of relationships. I just didn’t have. I was in my own little world and I didn’t have, I didn’t have the ability to do that. That was, that was a major problem. If I could think of others, it’s I think expanding beyond the thing that was working would have helped. I really was a big believer in Andrew Carnegie’s philosophy of put all your eggs in one basket and then watch that basket.

Andrew Warner:

Right? Bill gates was not, as I looked at him was not creating Microsoft. And then on the side had these two other businesses. What I’ve discovered after that was I could have diversified within the industry. We could have done greeting cards and then go more. And then the last thing I would say is I needed a thing that was not work in my life. That on the days when work sucked, I felt like I sucked because my whole life was work on the days when work was great. I felt I was great. It’s too many highs and lows to come from. That external thing. What I did is I was starting to get down about only making half a million a month in revenue was I took up running and then running provided some of the, some of that change of self perception for me. I could go and run further on any day. You know, it’s just about having endurance, which I do have. And then if I can run further than I ever ran before, then I feel better about myself. And then I could come in as a sales person and sell from a place of feeling strong instead of if we’re sales are low and I’m making call all about me as low, you know,

Keith Wolf:

It makes a lot of sense to the, you know, I think a lot of folks on this call and people are going to listen to this. I mean, you’ve, you’ve come in touch with so many entrepreneurs and other folks on the call who may have been entrepreneurs, maybe you’re considering being an entrepreneur. What advice would you give somebody? You know, should they deciding whether they should go my proposing, anyone quit their day job, but for folks who weren’t considering it or always wondered about it you know, what considerations would you throw out there for someone to to think about?

Andrew Warner:

So I would say that if you’re not an entrepreneur, don’t feel bad about yourself like this. Now we went from a place where if you’re an entrepreneur and not somebody who had a job, then you were a loser because you needed to have a job in order to have a sense of self worth in the world. And that’s, that’s the way the world I came into. When I graduated from college today, I feel like we’re getting into a place where if you’re not an entrepreneur or you feel like, well, there’s something wrong with me. There’s nothing wrong with you. It’s totally fine. Everyone has their own approach. Right? Steve Balmer was an employee who became a billionaire. There are people who do great for themselves and have live happier lives and entrepreneurs because they have a good job. Appreciate it. Don’t don’t don’t just feel bad about it because, because there’s a sense that there’s a hierarchy in the world.

Andrew Warner:

That’s not true. Another thing is, I think there’s a lot of value to be had from having a side business, a little thing. That’s just lets you explore a technology, lets you just explore the experience so that you understand what it’s about and see is this for you. And then maybe use it again later on. I highly recommend opening up a Shopify store, creating a WordPress blog and also giving yourself permission to close it up. I’ve talked to so many entrepreneurs who who’ve made it, who whenever the next new thing is the great. Let me give you an example of someone who I think would be okay with me doing this. Shane Mac comes to me and goes, I found the thing it’s called skedaddle. Yelp gave you reviews that are all texts. Nobody wants to read texts. We want to see pictures of the restaurants, pictures of the vibe, pictures of the food, pictures, pictures, pictures are the new review I bought into it.

Andrew Warner:

I invested in the company. That was the future company. Didn’t work out, get adjusted. Totally fine. He turned it into a company called assist. Chatbots are the future. Here’s where chat is going to go. Totally believing in it that everything’s going to go down. I totally believe in chat experiences. Great. Invested more. I know it worked so. So his approach, the thing that’s interesting is he didn’t go, ah, that’s such a failure because I had to close the data and switch over to this other thing. He just said, this is the way it works. If you were to go to him and go, did you fail or you lose or did you make a mistake for, for coming up with the wrong thing? He’d laugh at you for doing, for, for thinking that meanwhile, most people go. I started the Shopify store. If I don’t make it work, then I’m an absolute failure. Instead of being more like Shane, I can go. I started a Shopify store. Wow. This is kind of an interesting adventure. I got something out of it. Let’s close it up and be okay with it. Closing it up is not make you a failure. Closing it up actually in some ways is better.

Keith Wolf:

That’s great advice. That’s great advice. We have a few minutes and before, before we end,

Andrew Warner:

If I go to clubhouse, dude.

Keith Wolf:

Yeah. Okay. The folks want to download clubhouse. If you on your phone and head over there

Andrew Warner:

Via I don’t recommend it. This is better.

Keith Wolf:

It’s clubhouses. I, I find it awful, but you know the,

Andrew Warner:

I don’t recommend it, but I’m willing to experiment. Charles is saying not on Android. No, they’re on Android. Now. They finally need to leave.

Keith Wolf:

You’ve been remote working remotely for a long time. I mean, you’ve lived in Argentina. You’ve lived in San Francisco. You’ve lived in all the other places that I’m missing. You’re in Austin. Now you were remote before a moat was pulled before. COVID from a, from, from a hiring standpoint. I mean you you’ve had folks work for you remotely. How do you think about, because there are people on here on both sides, you know, the higher hiring managers, there’s also job seekers on here. How do you hire remotely effectively? How do you work remotely effectively? You just spend a couple of minutes on that. I think that’d be helpful folks.

Andrew Warner:

Sure. the way to hire remotely, I think that it’s about giving people work more than having conversations. At least in my experience, one of the best things that I learned was if you want to hire somebody to do the job, just pay them to do it first and see if it works. And I think that that, that took me a long time to appreciate, especially since I was thinking, well, all the hiring process is not me paying someone. Otherwise I’m going to go bankrupt. If I pay it, you’re not gonna go bankrupt. It’s not that much money. Just pay them to do the thing that you’re trying to do. If they love it, they’ll do it nights and weekends they’ll have time to do it, pay them to do it remotely, see how it works. And and then that’s big been a huge one for me.

Keith Wolf:

That is great advice. We we’ve done that recently and had a lot of success with that, right. To have people actually go through the process. What have you seen? Cause we get this question a lot and I see this argument on Twitter and LinkedIn, you know, people’s sort of resenting what companies are asking them to do. You know, whether it’s pick on this project, maybe do a little work. What are, what are some of the creative ways that people have gotten your attention as somebody who’s reached out to a lot? You know? What have they done to get your attention?

Andrew Warner:

When they’re trying to do it’s about, it’s kind of knowing me, we just want to feel like somebody knows the work that I’ve done to see that they’ve taken an interest, that they know what the podcast is about to not feel like. Like I, I felt that that for a long time, that it’s, oh no, I’m going to have to pay so much money to pay these people to do work so that I can figure out if I should hire them to do the job. You’re not going to go bankrupt. It’s not that much money. And the same thing on the other side, they think, well, I can’t take all this time to get to know every one of these companies I’m applying for. Even if it doesn’t work out, you know what? You’re not going to go bankrupt. Time-Wise you’ll be okay. Put in that work.

Keith Wolf:

Yeah. That’s good advice. Well, I want to be respectful of your time. I want to give you a two minute cushion before you log on to clubhouse. I could go on all day. I really appreciate it. It’s been an honor. It’s been fun. Hope we can stay in touch and chat more.

Andrew Warner:

Of course. And for everyone out there, I’d love for you to follow up with me too. If you want to reach out to me. My email address is andrew@mixergy.com. Kimberly, send me an email. Now I want to know that we’re connected. And then if there’s like, if you end up doing interviews at some point in your life and you want to reach out with a question, let’s start the relationship now and understand that it’s much easier for you to hit reply on this message 10 years from now or a year from now than it is to start over fresh. But instead to say, Hey, I saw you with Keith. This was an interesting session. And then imagine a year from now you hit reply and say, Andrew, you said, I can ask you for anything. Well, actually here’s the thing. Here’s the email address again?

Andrew Warner:

IRA is asking it’s andrew@mixergy.com. Andrew@Mixergy.Com. And IRA, if you don’t mind just typing it into the chat to everybody because you know how to set it to everyone. I think it will help for them all to have it. All right. Thank you. Oh, and do get the book. I think it’s great. It’s going to be the real techniques. Stop asking questions. Dot co if you want to get it not.com, but that CO’s stop asking questions. Dot co I’m sorry. October 4th, Andrew mid-October is when we’re coming out with the book. Okay. Perfect. Thanks again. And we will talk soon. I appreciate it. Thanks IRA. I love you. Thanks for doing that IRA. Bye everyone. Thanks Keith. Thanks.