Webinar: ‘An Interview with Jordan Harbinger – Lessons from a Master Networker’

Keith:

Thank you everybody for joining. I am excited. I am. I’m super excited today to have, this is very meta. I am having a podcast. I don’t even know what to say icon. I mean, you’re one of the biggest icon names, podcasts, your names in the business. And to have you on here is a real thrill for me personally, but I also think everybody’s going to learn a ton, not just about your background and about careers and what you’ve done, but also networking and things that they can apply to their own career.

Keith:

So I’m Keith Wolf, I’m the managing director of Murray resources. I’m also the CEO of resume spice. We are a career coaching and resume writing service. We’re bringing you today’s webinar and excited to do so. And I sort of joke with some people, if you’ve ever seen the skit and Saturday live where Chris Farley interviews, Paul McCartney, and it’s super awkward and he’s like giddy. That’s pretty much me. So I’m going to try to keep it in check if you haven’t seen it YouTube, but after this webinar, but Jordan hosts, he hosts one of the top podcasts in the world, aptly called the Jordan harbinger show. And I don’t know, these figures are a little tough to come by. I’ve seen 11 million podcasts downloads a month. Is that, yeah, that sounds about right. Yeah. And you’ve interviewed Kobe Bryant, mark Cuban, Matthew McConaughey, Malcolm Gladwell, Kevin Systrom, the founder of Instagram and so many others.

Keith:

So basically by doing this, I’m interviewing them. This is how I feel about that. But it’s going to be a lot of fun because your backstory is fascinating. And we’re going to spend a lot of time, a lot of time on that, but also get into networking and something that you’ve mastered over your career. We’re going to be about 50 minutes. Jordan does have a commitment at the hour. So if you have questions, try to get them in early. I know a lot of times in these sorts of things, everybody rushes a questions at the end, and then we got to rush off. So try to get them in early, if you have them. And let me do a quick bio. If you don’t know Jordan, if this is your first introduction to him he’s a former wall street attorney. He speaks five languages.

Keith:

He spent several years abroad in Europe, as well as south America, Eastern Europe and the middle east. He’s also worked for various government and NGOs overseas. He’s traveled through war zones. He’s been kidnapped twice. And he says, the only reason he’s still alive and kicking is because he can talk his way into and out of any situation. And then while as a lawyer, he decided he was going to drop that career and we’ll get into that and become a podcaster before anyone really knew what that was. So he built a show up into one of the top podcasts in the world, and then it abruptly ended and he recreated it and he built another show from scratch. And we’re going to talk about that. Within months he was, he was interviewing the world’s top performers, musicians, operatives, top athletes, and, and really visionary change. So again, a thrill to have you here and let’s get into it.

Jordan:

Sure. Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Keith:

Definitely. So just thinking back before all of this, I always find interesting to kind of know someone’s background. What kind of, what kind of kid were you, you know, growing up, you know, who was Jordan? Were you a wild kid that got into everything? Where are you an introvert? What was your background?

Jordan:

Like? I was kind of both, so I was introverted, but I was also very what’s what’s the word? Like precocious or whatever. So I was the kid who would in school, just not know what’s going on, not talk to anybody, be super shy. And the teachers are like, yeah, what’s wrong with him. But then I would go home and I would jump on the computer. I bugged my parents for a computer and I had internet and my parents would be like, what are you doing all day? And I’d be like, oh, I’m chatting with people from all over the, you know, Israel, Europe, blah, blah, blah. And I’m like taking phones apart and reprogramming cell phones and like learning how to build electronics. And they’re just like, our kid is weird, you know, they just kind of were like, what is going on here? Right.

Jordan:

And it was very useful for me to learn a lot of those things. I basically be like, I self-taught so many different things, but since technology was so new and the teachers in my school were just kind of like these many of them were just sort of like these disconnected people that had no idea about how to actually educate a kid who was a self-starter I got sort of hammered into these. It was kind of the square peg getting hammered into the round hole type scenario where, you know, certain teachers really saw what was going on. Like I remember my shop teacher, my mom, and going, or me and my mom and going like you should, you know, you’re basically doing things that I used to learn in college, you know, from an engineering perspective, you know, this is very you’re you’ve really, you really seem to understand this stuff, but then like another guidance counselor would go, yeah, we’re not sending you up for shop.

Jordan:

Cause it’s full. We’re going to put you in drama and I’d be like, yeah, this is terrible standing up in front of people being on a stage. Like this is my nightmare. And they were like, yeah, too bad. The logistics just didn’t work out for you to be in shop. And I’m just like, oh my God. So now that I have kids, I vowed to just not let that kind of crap happen because it, it doesn’t yes, there are, it fits to forcing yourself to do hard things. But there’s also such thing as taking a kid who is above average in like technical skills. And then just being like, you don’t get to address those because it’s easier for us as educators to ignore that and hammer everyone into being with the lowest common denominator. And so school was like, I never really kind of fit in.

Jordan:

And some teachers were like, wow, you’re really, you don’t belong here. You’re doing great in all these areas. And other teachers were like, you’re an idiot because you can’t pay attention to stuff. And it turned out that paying attention to stuff that I knew I would never use. And that wasn’t useful. And that wasn’t taught well is it’s like not a skill that’s really worth learning because it only gets you through school. Right. And it’s like, unless your goal is to master school, then you don’t really need it. So I got good grades enough to go to college. I went to college, did pretty well there because you have much more flexibility academically. And I was kind of able to, in a way, hack the system, you know, cause as a kid I’d been getting in trouble, but I got in the right kind of trouble where like I remember there was one specific instance where I had been ordering pizza and making calls and like on cell phones that I’ve been bringing to school that people thought were like stolen, but they weren’t, and I’d been programming them and all this stuff.

Jordan:

So the police came to the school and they were like, you can’t do this. You know, we’d like, no, you’re up to something what’s going on and they didn’t have anything. So they actually ended up calling the FBI and the FBI agent that was handling the case. Cause I had ordered a bunch of pizzas and I’d use like fake credit card information. I was 13 years old. They were like, this is credit card fraud. And then the FBI agent was like, wait, how did you get a credit card now? And I’m like, well, on the internet, I made friends with all these like hacker guys that are doing serious credit card crime. And I just grabbed some of the dumps. They were called with the numbers and they’re like, okay, but how are you connecting with us? Because they don’t allow anybody to just like call in on their modem.

Jordan:

And I’m like, oh yeah, no, I programmed a cell phone. Wait, how did you do that? Well, I drove into the dumpster at the cell phone store knowing I could find the serial number there. And then I went in there and I sweet talked with the guy, told him to give me a broken phone and then he showed me how to fix it. So I’ve been coming here after school and like soldering and buying parts at radio shack. So the FBI agent was like, hold on this isn’t some punk who like wanted a free pizza and found someone’s credit card on the ground. This is a kid who is coming up with ways to out-think security systems of cell phone companies, banks, credit card companies at age 13. And all he used it for was pizza and not like drugs or guns or human trafficking.

Jordan:

So he just was like, we’re going to give you community service by sending you to a social worker, but also, you know, you should join the FBI when you’re older. And I remember him telling me that and it was interesting because I had thought, oh, all my teachers, except for a couple are like, this kid is a troublemaker. And this was like a guy who was in the FBI. So I thought he’s super cool. He knows more than any of these dumb teachers who are like, they don’t get it. So the fact that he told me I should join the FBI was like a major, major confidence booster for somebody who thought like, oh, all I do is just get in trouble and make my parents sad. So, so I started to focus a little bit more on those types of activities and that kind of guided my life.

Jordan:

Now. I never ended up joining the FBI. I worked with them on some other projects and things like that. But I, I just think like now looking back, it really is a shame. Cause we take some of our, when you hear about giant frauds and crime in, in especially like really complex financial fraud or like hacking, all I can think of is the kid probably just had crappy influences because they’re obviously really smart and that’s not like any sort of super insightful statement, but it is kind of sad thinking that somebody who came up with a way to like shut down an oil pipeline is using it to shut down oil pipelines and isn’t using it to like create a technology that makes hospitals more efficient because it’s basically the same skills.

Keith:

That’s amazing. That’s what I mean, doing what you’re doing at the time. Did you ever have any fear? I mean, were you not afraid of authority? Was that just not in your DNA?

Jordan:

I was just like, oh, I’m not really doing anything that bad. You know? And I was thinking like, okay, fine. I’m like cracking these systems, but I’m not doing anything bad. And it sort of had to be explained to me, and this is why we don’t prosecute minors as adults. Most of the time, it had to be explained to me that like, Hey, every time you make a phone call to Japan as a prank on a phone that you aren’t paying for, the phone company has to pay for that. The person whose phone number, serial number you’re using has to pay for that the mobile provider has to pay for that. And I was like, oh, okay. So it’s stealing, you know, but I didn’t really think about that cause I was 13, 14. I was just thinking, Hey, I figured out how to program a cellular phone using a cable that I made in a program on my computer that I like got from a friend, you know, like this is, that’s what I was more interested in was like the technical aspect of this.

Jordan:

And I was breaking into those green boxes on the side of the road and I was plugging in a homemade, a handset. So I could listen to other people’s phone calls and I never got caught doing that, but I remember telling other people about that. And I remember telling an adult, my friend’s dad who was a judge and he goes, okay, first of all, don’t tell anyone else that you’re doing this and you should stop doing it. And he goes, this is called wiretapping. And it is like, it is a felony. Like you cannot listen to other people’s phone calls. And I was like, who cares? It’s just a bunch of people talking about stupid adult problems, you know? And he’s like, it’s super, super, super illegal. And if you get caught, you might get in real trouble. And it was interesting because you know, this is a judge.

Jordan:

Who’s not going, you deserve to be in jail. He was like, you’re too smart for this. And that was also kind of a vote of confidence. Like I remember one day he caught me and my friend we were in high school at this point ninth or 10th grade. And he goes, what are you guys doing? You’ve been up here for a while. And he saw that on the bed. I had printed out a on an inkjet printer on some very decently heavy, like middle of the road card stock. I’d printed out your, your you’re in your forties. Right? So you remember like how Ticketmaster and concert tickets used to have that like glossy paper and on it would be printed something. And on the right side, it would be kind of pink on the left side would be kind of blue in the middle.

Jordan:

It’s kind of yellow. And like the side rips off, you’ve got like an inch and a half that rips off. That’s like your stub. And then they take the rest of the ticket or they take the stub. I can’t remember. And that’s all concert tickets look at exactly the same. So I had gotten some free concert tickets from like signing up for something. And it was for like blue oyster cult or some band that nobody like ever listens to. And I remember going to the concert venue on the wrong date. I had just not paid attention to the date. Me and my friends. We walked into the concert venue and we were like, we’re the only white people here what’s going on. And that’s when we realized it was actually a jazz and blues thing. So it was like all like middle-aged African-American couples that were like on date night and we’re like, wait, what is this garbage?

Jordan:

So we left. And then I went, wait a minute. We just walked into a concert venue with tickets for the wrong event. That means that all they’re doing is looking to see if you just have tickets at all. So then I got a Beastie boys tickets from my girlfriend. They were hers. I just said, I need to borrow them for an hour. I scanned them. I printed them off with the F I photo-shopped the different numbers and different seats and stuff on there. And I met her in the second row at Beastie boys and gave her the surprise of her life. And I had perforated the ticket with like a little knife so that it had a perforation, you know, I changed everything and the judge had caught us and he goes, do not get caught because this is also stealing. So I eventually got like the message and he’s like, you’re too old for this.

Jordan:

Now you’re going to get in trouble. You need to use your brain to figure out how to like make money, not how to like, figure out how to hack these systems. And he’s like, but you’re sort of on the right track because you’re getting the idea of how systems work and how there are holes in things and how you can do all these things. But he’s like, you need to like turn the Canon 45 degrees to the right, because otherwise you’re going to end up in my courtroom and I’m going to have to, you know, throw you in prison. And he’s like, that’s not where you belong. He’s like, you need to be figuring out engineering systems or something else, because this is not normal behavior for a kid. He’s like the kids I have in my courtroom are like shoplifting. They’re not fricking printing out Beastie boys tickets and Photoshopping the barcode. You know,

Keith:

My kids will not be listening to this webinar. I just decided there’s too many ideas, ideas. I don’t know if they can pull this off anyway, but I

Jordan:

Stuff doesn’t work anymore. Like now they can scan the barcode. And then the ticket has a different number that’s been used and it registers instantly, this is the nineties. They didn’t have a laser scanning barcode system in the box that said, Hey, this ticket serial number has already been used. That’s why like, you know, you’re when you’re on the cutting edge of anything, security, always lags behind. That’s why like those people who use in their house, they have cameras, they got a ring doorbell and they got a digital baby monitor and they got a digital thermostat. Like all that stuff is infinitely hackable because security is the last thing that people think about. And so I was just in that sweet spot of, oh, they’re just looking to see if people have tickets because nobody has a color printer that can print out the quality of what we’re doing. You know, nobody can print out a photograph on a driver’s license and then laminate it in their house. Now anybody can do that. But back then, you know, 25 years ago, nobody could do that. And that was what I relied upon was that nobody had seen fake tickets. Right. Yeah.

Keith:

And then I know you see the irony of what you ended up did first after college, right. Becoming a lawyer. Was that because you were respected the judge or you kind of wanting to keep people on the straight and air, what was the reason coming a lawyer after school?

Jordan:

I would say one, I needed to find something to do that required further education because I got out of college and the promise was like, oh, you got out of the university of Michigan. You guys have great degrees. You’re going to have great jobs. You’re going to have great careers. And then when it came time to like finding jobs, the guidance counselors who worked for a public university and hadn’t had to find a job in 30 years were like, oh, just network, start your way at the bottom and work your way up. And I was like, bottom of what? Where did we even go? You know, where’s like the job placement stuff even happening. And so I went to like best buy, you know? And I was like, Hey where do I get jobs? Like in your corporation part and not at the store.

Jordan:

And they’re like, oh, a lot of people work their way up. And I was like, okay. So I applied and they’re like, yeah. Okay, great. You know, three rounds of interviews you’re hired, you’re going to be selling CDs for 7 25 an hour. And I was like, no, no, no. I have a degree from the university of Michigan and $70,000 that I have to pay back. And also I speak like four languages. And I have a degree in political science and also have a degree in economics. Like I don’t need to sell CDs with my friend’s little brother. Who’s 17 for 7 25 an hour. Like I can build computers. And I was like, look, I’m not trying to be entitled, but I can at least build computers. Like, that’s something you have here. People fixing computers. And they were like, if you work here for three years, you can eventually move into computer repair, but you have to go through our training program.

Jordan:

And I just was imagining their training program being like, this is how you turn on the computer. And this is how you plug things in. And I was like, I built a computer in my dorm room. And then my friend’s roommate came over and said, what kind of computer is this? And I said, I built it. And he said, how? And I said from parts and he switched his major from computer engineering to French because he said, I can’t do that. And I’m a computer engineering major at the university of Michigan. And I was like, it’s really easy. It’s like Legos. And he switched his major to French. So I just knew, I was like, oh, this is going to be school all over again. Lowest common denominators, sell some CDs, make minimum wage work here for three years. I’m going to go through this corporate crap and be like totally bored the whole time and be broken poor because I can’t pay back my student loans.

Jordan:

No, thanks. So that’s why I went to law school because everyone was like, if you can get into a good law school, then you can get a job that pays six figures. And I was like, okay. So I applied to really good law schools and I got into some and they were like, my, you know, my dad’s friends who were lawyers were like, oh, you got into a top 10 law school. You kind of have to go because just graduating from a top law school, you’ll get a job. And at the time I think my starting salary was like $160,000 a year plus bonus. And this is like in 2007. So, and that was my first year. My dad was an auto worker. My mom was a public school teacher combined at the peak of their careers. There’s almost no chance. They made $160,000. And that was before my bonus.

Jordan:

So then that was like, oh, that’s the money I’m talking about. Right? Like that’s where success comes from is like getting a job like that. Because five years in, you’re making 500 grand a year, like this is where, I’m what I’m talking about. So I didn’t become a lawyer cause I was like, oh, the judge is great and altruism. And like law and order, I became a lawyer because I w it being a lawyer is like looking at a system, finding holes in the system working the system, which I was already really good at anyway is from a physical, you know, engineering standpoint. So that was good. But also just mostly, it was like, if you just make it outta here in one piece and you apply to the New York bar and you pass, you’re almost certainly like, you’d have to try hard, not to be a one percenter after a while. And I was like, good. Sign me up. You know, it was pretty much nothing beyond that. Once you’re 168 or a hundred and whatever thousand dollars in debt from law school and undergrad, you’re no longer thinking, like, what does my heart tell me to do? You’re like, I’m going to be living out of a tin can if I don’t figure out a way to pay this

Jordan:

Off, you know, that’s where my thoughts where I came

Keith:

From. So you were doing that for a few years, your upcoming lawyer, and then you had a conversation with one of the top lawyers at the firm and it kind of changed your trajectory. So tell us about that. Sure.

Jordan:

So I was thinking like most people do who are in like performance jobs that I’m going to get fired. I don’t belong here. They’re going to figure out that I don’t belong here. I’m going to be in trouble. They’re going to let me go imposter syndrome. Everybody has it. Who’s not a teenager. Right. When you’re a teenager, you know, everything. Then when you get in front of other people that are great at what they do, like wall street attorneys, you’re just like, oh, I’m the odd man out. And in many ways I was, cause I was having trouble focusing on one of the most boring jobs ever, which is like looking at these complicated documents and not much more. And so I had talked to one of the partners there who was a younger guy in the real estate department. And I said, Hey, everybody else, who’s a partner here is like 60, 55.

Jordan:

You hear like 42. How did you become a partner early? You know, your name’s not on the building. It’s not like your grandpa founded this, you know, what’s up. And he’s like, oh, you know, I bring in a lot of business for the firm. And I was like, yeah, I noticed it. Never in the office. Do you just work from home? And he’s like, well, yeah, but I don’t really focus on billable hours. I focus on bringing in business for this law firm. And I was like, how do you do that? Cause I just thought like, oh, people find lawyers by, I don’t know, like going in the yellow pages and look it up law firm. And then they call a few people and then our prices are good. I don’t know. And he’s just like, no, no, no, no, no. I I’m hanging out with investment bankers.

Jordan:

If they’re running, I’m running. If they’re cycling, I’m cycling. If they’re doing jujitsu, I’m doing jujitsu. If they’re golfing, I’m golfing. And I was like, so let me get this straight five days a week, you’re golfing doing jujitsu, swimming, jogging, playing racketball or eating. And that is how you are making friends with these people. And you’re the business is paying for this. And then three months in or whatever. They’re just like, Hey, we’ve got this big deal coming up with Goldman Sachs, can you handle the paperwork? And between swings, you’re like, sure. And then you get a massive windfall from the firm because you’re taking like 5% of the billing. And so thus, instead of billing, like 3000 hours of work or 2000 hours of work, like everyone else in the firm, you just don’t even worry about the billables because you’re getting a percentage of the total bill and managing the account.

Jordan:

And he’s like, yeah, pretty much. And I was like, holy smoke. I got to figure that out because he was like unable to be fired. Right. And in fact, when, when we, when the economy sort of tanked, especially real estate, all of the other partners, they were like, oh yeah, I’m going to go on hiatus for three or four years while this economy recovers. And they like kind of started doing consulting work and all this other stuff to just sort of like stay afloat. And this guy just walked into another firm and was like, yeah, I’ll be a partner here instead because he had all these clients and he had a book of business. So he was like the last person that they could let go because he was the only person that was able to bring in money and lean times or, or at all for that matter.

Jordan:

So I was like, this guy is working less, having more fun, making more money and is like Bulletproof, where I need to be this guy. How do I do that? And unfortunately he had no real actionable advice. You know, his advice was like, make good connections with people and network. And I remember thinking, yeah, yeah. They told us that in law school. And then when I asked what networking was, they were like print off business cards on the printers, in the library and hand them out. And I’m like, no, one’s calling you. If you hand them a business card that you printed off in the library and you’re 27, like what’s the real advice. And the real advice was none of them had a freaking clue because they’d been a cog in a machine for 20 years and they’ve never actually had to do any of the advice that they’re saying. They got their first job through luck or for their dad, you know, like nobody ever had to actually survive in lean times.

Keith:

Right. At this point, did you have any real contacts and your real network that you’ve built up? I mean, it didn’t sound like you really came from the background that you had.

Jordan:

Yeah, no. And I thought, okay, this is going to be impossible because all the guys that I knew who were like this guy, Dave, I was like, all right, let’s reverse engineer this, where did they go to school? Oh, Brooklyn preparatory. You private school for rich kids. Oh, I went to public schools. Okay. Where did they go to college? New York law school. That feeds to a bunch of New York law firms. Like the one I’m working at. Okay. All right. I got some connections from my law school, but they’re all like young people were first year in here and they’re like, yeah, just maintain those connections. One how to, so what they’re all first year, they can’t hire me. They can’t recommend me for anything. I’ll be lucky to get an email address on a half of these guys. You know, what the hell. So none of that really made any sense.

Jordan:

It was kind of like when people say, how do you get rich? You just go, well, buy index funds now, and then wait 30 years. And you’re like, nah, no, no, I, how does it work now? What am I doing now? That’s not passive. Right. Nobody had a clue. So I started to sort of reverse engineer sales techniques and rapport generation and nonverbal communication and things like that through other people that were good at it. So instead of like the, just to be cool and maintain network connections, school of networking, I went along with like, okay, what are you doing every day? Oh, well, you know, I look at my calendar and I see who I have meetings with and, you know, I make sure that they’re ready for the meeting by giving them a quick call. And I’m like, okay. So you’re calling people every day that you are going to meet with in a few months to get them ready for the meeting, but it’s not really to get them ready for the meeting.

Jordan:

You’re just calling to sort of like maintain the connection so that they don’t cancel the meeting. And it’s like, oh yeah, okay. Yeah, that sorta, maybe that. And it’s like, then you’re emailing them something later. So that you’re, you know, after the meeting so that you have an understanding of the meeting, but it’s not just that you’re also opening up an email thread that they’re going to open, so you can give the dialogue running. And I just sort of like mirrored what a lot of really good salesmen were doing. And I realized that people who are really good at sales are actually really good at networking generally because bad sales men are the ones where we know they’re selling us something. Cause they’re like, oh yeah, this car is a beauty hub. Basically. We’re giving it away down here at the lot. It only has 10,000 miles on it.

Jordan:

And you’re like, all right, buddy, I get it. You’re selling me a car, but really good. Say things like, let me know if you have any questions about how to get a good deal on a car purchase. Next time you’re ready. And then two years before your sales cycle is up and you’re ready for a new car. They’re like, Hey, what do you think of that Toyota? You got, are you having any problems? A lot of friends of mine that have it said that the brake pedal sticks and I’m like, yeah, I’m kind of having a little bit of a brake pedal issue. No worries. You know, what they said is throw some WD 40 on it and it’ll be fine. Hey, T you know, two months later, or two, six months later, Hey, a lot of people that are having the Corollas, they say their hubcaps are falling off.

Jordan:

Cause they use some kind of cheap stuff on there. Let us know if you need to replace it. I know a guy who can do it a good job and it’s not him. And I’m like, yeah, actually I am losing hubcaps on the highway. I will go to your guy. Who’s got a pretty good deal. And at a shop and he probably made, maybe you got to kick back for it, but it didn’t matter. Cause he probably got like 50 bucks out of my, you know, 500 or whatever it costs. And then when it came time to buy a car, who did I call the guy they’ve been giving me useful advice for like three years. And I was like, Hey, how do I get a good deal on a car? Just moved to California and he’d go up, come down here. I’ll take care of you.

Jordan:

And of course I wasn’t like, well, I’m going to call a bunch of other random people. I’ve never spoken to in my life that I found on the yellow pages. No, I go to the person I trust. So I was like, aha, this is what good salespeople do. But good networkers are essentially really good salespeople. They’re just, they don’t have an agenda to later on make money off of you. They’re just doing everything that the sales person is doing. But later on their quote, unquote agenda is just sort of a black box. Like you don’t know, they don’t know. Maybe there’s never anything, but they’re acting as if one day they may actually really need something. But in the meantime, they’re super helpful. They’re connecting you to other people that can help you. They’re not looking for what’s in it for them. They’re just really, really good at that.

Jordan:

And the best salespeople do that and the best networkers also do that. It’s just that the best salespeople eventually try and put you into a new Ford, you know, or a new house. Right? Whereas the best networkers, they might try to get you to buy a new house, but it’ll be through their friend, you know, and they’re not necessarily getting anything out of it. And that’s the best way to be because if you ever do need something and you’ve been doing that kind of networking for the last 10 years, people are going to be tripping over themselves and each other to come and help you out because you’ve been so useful and valuable to them over the, in the past. And so that’s kind of what I had learned. And I was like, oh my gosh, if you can be that valuable to that many people, the world is your oyster because the second you need something, all you got to kind of do is put the word out. And people are like,

Speaker 4:

Jordan needs this who owes him one

Jordan:

7,000 hands, go up over the, you know, from the past decade and a half. So you,

Keith:

So you started to put this networking process. I don’t know if you thought about it as a process at that point or you’re kind of learning about it, but you put that. Yeah. You put that together in, you know, some people go through a career change, you went through a career transformation when you went from lawyer to podcast, or I know there’s some stuff in between, but why podcasting, nobody had really heard of it at that point. You were early on, did you, I mean, did you have the vision that it would grow one day to be as big as it is? Did you expect to monetize it or was it more, was it a hobby?

Jordan:

Yeah. So the podcast was a hobby and I started it actually while I was in law school. And I started at about, it was originally a show that was about networking and like no one cared. Actually I should say it was a course that I was teaching. It was about networking and no one cared because I went back to the law school and I was like, look, this networking thing, this is the key. Everyone says it, all the partners say it, I’ve got some ideas, I’m studying it like crazy. We need to learn this. And they were like, yeah, the law school is like, great. This is so good. No one’s teaching networking. And we had a professor that was also a managing partner at a law firm. And he’s like, great. Someone needs to tackle this because it’s a big topic. It’s possibly one of the biggest topics.

Jordan:

We don’t have anybody teaching us, even though you’re a student and you’re just getting started, it’s better than nothing. Let’s do it. So I had this little elective course and like four people signed up and they were all women. And I was like, okay, what’s going on? And I found out that one, most people think they don’t need to network because it’s for old people or people at the top of their industry, not people who got to the top of their industry because of their relationships. They’ve they were all in. I get it. Mistakenly thinking that your relationships come when you are at the top and you’re looking down and everyone’s looking up at you like some sort of deity because you’re the boss and then you’ve got relationships, right? No, you get there because of your relationships. But, but alas and the other reason that no one cared was because a lot of the guys especially were like, I’m just going to work really hard because I’m really smart and special.

Jordan:

And I’m going to work up to partner and I don’t need to network because I’m a special snowflake. And that a lot of people at elite schools think that, but these four women, the reason they signed up was almost universally, Hey, wall, street law, all these things, it’s a boys club. We’re never going to get ahead unless we stick together. And women are generally better at maintaining relationships anyways, because it’s something in the wiring I guess. And so the, and there’s a lot of science that shows that to be true. So I started teaching women, these networking skills, but the course was held in a very hot room that half the time that they would forget to unlock and then I’d be stuck in the hallway. So I started to hold the course in a bar and the bar was always air conditioned and always had drinks.

Jordan:

So basically Tuesdays and Thursdays, I’d show up to the bar with four women. And it was interesting. And then I’d show up with six women because more would join. And then eventually I had like eight women. And instead of just talking about handing out resumes, I was talking about the, the value of persuasion and influence and nonverbal communication, just like the stuff I talk about in the Jordan harbinger show. And so then we, I started teaching those skills by analyzing people in the bar and saying, see that couple, they’re not on a date. The guy’s interested in her, but she’s not interested in him. And women are also very good at nonverbal communication, generally speaking. So they would go, I agree, but I don’t know why, you know why. And I would say, well, this, this, this, this and this, and we’d sort of deconstruct this.

Jordan:

And the, the, the ladies in the class found that extremely fascinating as did I. So the course quickly pivoted from networking to deconstruct people’s body language at bars, then I had like 12, 15 women showing up every single day that I taught the class. And as I started doing that guys started to be like, so why are you here every Tuesday and Thursday with a bunch of women? Like this is what’s what’s going on over here. And so it started to become quite a popular course. And so I started to take my lectures as it were, record them on a mini disc player, burn them to CDs and give the CDs to new students. Because if you’re showing up after the sixth session, then you’re missed, you missed out on a bunch of basics. I don’t want to repeat myself. So I give you these, this CD, it’s got two, three hours of stuff on it.

Jordan:

You have to play that. And then come back. That was the first sort of beginning of the podcast. Cause I went, I knew me too. I need to create some way for people to download this off the internet, because if I don’t, then I’m going to hand out a million CDs and never get any of them back. And that was why I started podcasting was because I went, I need to figure out a way to distribute these talks that I’m teaching for this course. And then eventually, since it became sort of a dating thing, I started doing a dating show and that was the Genesis of the show that became the Jordan harbinger show. Because that show got pretty popular because as it was popular with a bunch of random law students at the university of Michigan in 2004, it was extremely popular with a bunch of guys all over the world who were new to podcasts and podcasts were so new. This is like 2006 at this point or 2005, whatever it was at this point, the people that were looking at podcasts in 2005 were tech tech guys. So when I was talking about dating and relationships and nonverbal communication and meeting and attracting the opposite sex, they were like, what, where do I sign up? Right. There’s a free podcast that talks about this. So the show just sort of started to take off.

Keith:

So how long were you doing it until you felt comfortable going out? Cause you’re doing it while you’re, while you’re still at the firm. How long, how long was the overlap?

Jordan:

So I started in law school. Then I continued at the firm and then I ended up going on the radio while I was in New York as a guest on Sirius XM. And then the station manager happened to be listening to that episode of the show that I was on with these, these two sort of like shock jock, bro, dude DJs. And he was like, Hey, this is pretty good. How much of this material do you have? And I said a ton because I have a podcast. Do you know what a podcast is? And he was like, yeah. So I told him about the podcast. And then about a month later, I followed up mercilessly a month later I went in maybe two months and I said, Hey, if you had a chance to listen to the podcast and he goes, oh yeah, I meant to email you.

Jordan:

Yeah, I did. I think it’s really interesting. Do you want to do a show on satellite? And I was like, what? Yeah. I would love to do a satellite radio show and they were like, yeah, cool. We really can’t pay you that much though. And it’s going to be like every Tuesday at 11:00 AM. And I was like, let me figure this out. So I went to my bosses at the law firm and I go, Hey, I have a standing thing that I kind of have to do in during the week. And it said 11:00 AM and I’ll make up the time. And they were like, yeah, we don’t care. Whatever. You’re not, you just fine. You know, doesn’t matter. And I was like, cool. And then after a while it was like, Hey, I gotta move this to Fridays. Hey, we want you on the evening drive on Fridays every week.

Jordan:

Hey, you want to do two hours instead of one. So my show on the radio was pretty successful, but I kept doing the podcast because I enjoyed it and I owned it. So as I was doing stuff on the radio about dating, I started to shift the podcast from like, here’s how you pick up chicks bro. Cause I was like 27. I started to go, Hey, all the science, I’m reading really interesting. All the stories I’m hearing from people in New York. Really interesting. So I started to shift the podcast from like pickup artists rubbish to more interesting talks that I was interested in. And then the satellite show was like dating talk. Right. And that type of stuff was really interesting to me. So I kind of went from networking to like dating stuff and then gradually shifted back to like neuroscience networking and that type of stuff.

Jordan:

And that to me was a really, really good move because now that I’m 41, I can’t really imagine talking about dating all the time, but also I’m glad that I didn’t take anyone’s advice because people would go, why are you wasting your time with this dumb podcast? When you have a Sirius XM satellite radio show that reaches all over the U S and Canada. And then when I moved from New York to LA, I kept my radio show, but I was out of sight out of mind, as far as the corporate management in New York. And then one day they were like, oh yeah yeah, we’re going to renew your contract and know, I didn’t hear from them for like two months. And I was like, guys, hello? And they went, oh yeah, I know there’s a new manager. You have to talk to Craig.

Jordan:

And I went, Hey, Craig, waiting for my contract. And he goes, I don’t really know you guys, I’m just going to like, not renew this and we’re going to put on some other thing. And that was the end of that. And I went, oh my God, good thing. I kept this podcast for the last few years. Cause I just got unplugged like with no warning, like with like dismiss like a two line email. Yeah. And I was like, oh my God. Imagine the instant that also really made me want to start my own business. I’d already started my own business. But I, at that point I went, oh my God, seven years of law school, this could happen to me. And it did happen when the economy downturn. So all these people that were telling me that starting my own thing was too risky. I realized that the risk, his thing was actually giving someone else full control over whether or not I was employed. Right. You know, that was the, that was the risk. Yeah.

Keith:

So you’ve built up two huge hits podcasts. And I won’t go into the whole story of the first one and kind of how they ended folks can find information about that online. You’ve talked about it publicly in depth, but you had to basically start from scratch. And so, I mean, I th I can pick a lot of points out of your background that people wouldn’t have, have, have done what you did. Just a simple one is going to your boss and saying, Hey, 11:00 AM. I’m going to be doing this podcast. Is that okay? Like most people would not ask that question, let alone, come back from having a huge hit of a podcast and rebuilding it from scratch and just starting all over. Where does that resiliency come from? How did you do it? And how long did you sort of just kind of feel sorry for yourself and for picking it back up and how did you, how’d you do that?

Jordan:

Yeah. I mean, the thing is I really loved the radio gig and I thought, okay, 11:00 AM on Tuesdays. It’s I’m like already kind of near times I can take the subway right up to times square and right back, I can be back in like 90 minutes round trip, you know, do the shows only an hour or whatever. And I just asked and I said, look, I know that this is during working hours. And I know that this is probably inconvenient, but this is my hobby. It’s very temporary that this is going to be during working hours. I realized that it’s just a hobby, but this is the thing that’s kind of keeping me sane. We work a lot here. I’m happy to come in on the weekends and they, you know, real talk. They didn’t have that much of it. They had a choice, but not much of one because they were recruiting hard out of elite universities.

Jordan:

Right. They like, when I got that job on wall street, I went, I walked into an interview with no appointment because the guy was eating a lunch. I sat down and he looked at my resume and he looked at my grades and he said, why do you want to work in New York? And I said, new York’s really cool. And you know, who doesn’t want to work on wall street and make a bunch of money? And he goes, cool. Can you fly to New York for another round of interviews? That was it. He’s like eating a sandwich. I fly to New York, like the next week on their dime, of course, you know, stay at like the five-star, whatever’s something, something in New York go in and they go, here’s our office. You’re going to have a window. You, here’s your office mate. He’s a second year dude.

Jordan:

You know, real estate is what you’re gonna be working on. Do you have any questions? You ask a couple of questions. So you sound even, you know, just a little bit interested, then they take you to a super fancy, expensive lunch. And then before I got off the plane on my flight home, a partner called to offer me the job. I didn’t call back that day because I was like, I think I’d gotten, I can’t remember why, but I think I was like under the weather and felt kind of sick. And I was also looking at another offer from another firm that had done the exact same thing, fly me out to New York and then give me a job two seconds later. And they were doing this with everybody. It’s not just me being smart or whatever. That’s nothing. It’s just that the market was so hot.

Jordan:

They, the partner called me back and goes, Hey, you haven’t returned my call. Just want to make sure you’re interested in what we have here, where we’re actively hiring. We’d love to get it locked in. I called back and said, Hey, sorry. I was a little under the weather. I’d love to take the job. He’s like, great. And then he said, do you need any money to move and relocate? And I said, yeah, how much can I get? And he’s like, well, we can give you like $10,000 signing bonus. If it’ll help you move here. I said, yeah, sure. That sounds great. They sent me a check like that day and it derived like two days later. So I thought these, these guys, like, they need me. Then they asked me to start early. And I said, no, because I wanted to travel all summer, which is great because I traveled all summer instead of starting early.

Jordan:

But like, you know, it was, it was, that’s how hot the market was. So when I said, Hey, I kinda want to do this thing. That’s at 11:00 AM till noon. And then I’ll come and then I’ll just skip lunch and I’ll show up on weekends to get the work done. They weren’t like, no, because they knew that if, if I said that one, I could get a job anywhere else that would have, let me do that. But two, they don’t want to say we’re flexible and we’re really great and easy to work with. And then they won’t let me do this thing that I love, because I’ll just tell the next generation of Michigan law students that this company clams down on your and sucks, and they can’t afford to do that. Right. So they they’re like the whole time. What can we do to make you enjoy it here and get the most out of your career? Like they were in that mode. You had leverage at that point, I had leveraged. So they weren’t about to say no to that. You know, w

Keith:

We have seven minutes. So I want to use this time. I w I can go on forever, but I know you have, you have commitments. So we asked folks what sort of, what stops them from networking more. And I want to make sure that I want to run these by you. And is this what you hear? So these are the five buckets. There are a lot of really interesting answers, but the buckets were lack of time, not knowing where to start not having a plan or process would be number two third, two shy, introverted. Fourth was a fear of rejection or failure. And then a fifth was, which seems like it’s unique right now is COVID just a lack of physical events to go to, right? So there are those are those common, is that what you, those

Jordan:

Are? Yeah. So I, I, it’s hard for me to keep all those things in my head at once, but yeah, like the main things, those main objections, luckily, most of them are not going to be that important. So one of the things is all those lack of events to go to good events are a waste of your time. Stopped going to events, mostly like go to a few that are curated. If you could invite it. And it’s like people who are looking for jobs in Houston, in the tech sector go to that event. If you think it’ll be useful. But whenever somebody is like networking event, never go all it’s going to be, are people trying to sell you? Multi-Level marketing protein shakes and handing out, you know, cheap, old business cards that melt in your pocket, you know, do their body heat. That’s a waste of your time.

Jordan:

It’s a waste of your energy. It’s not curated. It’s going to be a bunch of takers. You don’t need to be in front of somebody to network. The whole am I able to give sort of access to the six-minute networking stuff? Cause that’s okay. So at, at Jordan harbinger.com/course it’s free. I’m not, there’s no like upsells or anything like that. I’ll put it in the chat. This is a course that has a bunch of drills that are really easy. They involve like doing things online, like texting people, sending messages, creating lists of people, to network with nothing that, that you, nobody needs to learn how to be like work in the room at a networking event. You don’t need to learn how to do any of that. So introverts are actually better at networking because they typically think before they talk, they have better deeper relationships with people.

Jordan:

That’s what real relationship development and networking is. So all the fear of rejection is out the window because you’re basically emailing people. If they don’t email you back, you can follow up or not. That’s the rejection you’re looking for. And you’re no longer like, hi Jordan harbinger, nice to meet you. And the person’s like, what do you do? You’re a loser by like, you’re never going to face that it’s never going to happen. You’re don’t even do this in person. You don’t have to go up on stage and speak. You don’t have to go to networking events. You don’t have to know which ones to go to. Like all of that is kind of out the window. The 99% of networking happens from your phone, text messages, emails, follow-ups brief catch-up calls go into an industry conference occasionally with people that you already know. And those kinds of scenarios, the whole idea that networking is like going and being a charming person at a cocktail party is not only outdated, but I don’t know if it ever existed.

Jordan:

I think that’s something we saw in movies in like the eighties. And we thought that’s how networking works. And it’s not like Dave, the guy who was sort of introducing this whole concept to me, his idea of networking was not going to a charity gala and being the guy who was the best tango and has a sharp tux and is like the tallest guy in the room. His idea of networking was going and doing jujitsu with one investment banker who was trying to lose weight. And so he took him to his jujitsu, plays to go and learn it. And then that guy gave him a $3 million labial because he was having fun and they were friends like, that’s it? You know? So unless you’re like a isolated basement dweller with no friends, you can do this and it’s not hard. And it’s not even going to be that much of a challenge, honestly.

Keith:

I mean, even, even having you on the show, right. People who know who you are know, that’s kind of a big deal. Ask me how it happened. I felt like it was very anti-climatic. I just said, I, I reached out to him, you know,

Jordan:

And that was it. Like what, like what magic formula do I have to get this thing? And it’s like, that’s not how any of this works. Like it’s about repetition and having the right ask and having the right give. And like, all of that is outlined in this course at Jordan harbinger.com/course. And it’s all free because the reason it’s like, this is what all young people need to know. It’s what all older people need to know. And it’s a system. So a lot of people, they say they have no plan. This is the plan. And also the systems are where it’s at. So people who often dread networking, they go, oh my gosh, I have to spend the whole weekend at this like industry conference. And I’ve got to do like 10 of these, but I have kids and a wife. I can’t, no it’s about spending five minutes a day texting or few people hitting a few people up on LinkedIn, sending a couple email. Follow-Ups done. You know, it’s the time that you’re wasting on Instagram. It’s time you’re wasting in the line at Starbucks. You know, it’s, it’s not like, oh, I’ve got to spend every Saturday afternoon having lunch with people. I don’t like, because networking, like that’s not it at all. All

Keith:

Right. I don’t want to leave the podcast. Well, gosh, there’s, there’s a lot to, I still want to cover, but you’ve, you’ve interviewed so many amazing people and all high achievers. Are there any common threads from the folks that you’ve interviewed and that, that we can all learn from anything that you’ve, you’ve seen any sort of themes?

Jordan:

Yeah. You know, a lot of the people that are super successful, they w they were lucky in some respects, but let’s, let’s throw that aside for now. But a lot of the people, they were consistent, you know, a lot of the folks that were really, really successful, they’re talented, they’re smart. They’re lucky, whatever it is. But mostly they showed up every day and they did what they needed to do. Like if they were investing, they didn’t give up. When they had a loss, they learned what they did wrong and they kept going. Or if they are a performer, they’re learning something from every performance that they give. And they’re working out those kinks in their space. You know, if at the super high level, like the Kobe Bryant level there, they’re doing a thousand reps a day of free throws before everybody even starts their practice session or whatever it is, like those shirts, those are some of the superstars, but mostly to get into like the top 1% of performance in most things, all you really need to do is have systems and be consistent.

Jordan:

You know, if you’re spending 15 minutes a day on a skill and everybody else’s spending zero, you are going to have a massive, massive compounding advantage. So that was the, that was what got me started networking in the legal field was I thought, every, if everyone’s smarter than me and everyone is working really hard here and working six, seven days a week, I cannot work anyone it’s physically impossible and making yourself smarter as a very slow process. Not always possible. Many people are geniuses here, whatever. They’re always going to have an advantage. If I start networking now as a first year associate, then by the time we’re fifth year associates and the partners say, oh, by the way, if you want to make partner bring in business and they go, how do I do that? And they say network. And they’re like, what? But I had that conversation half a decade ago and actually started doing it.

Jordan:

My advantage, my headstart is going to be so far ahead of everyone else. They will literally never catch up. Yep. Yep. And in that, that was what was interesting about this. And I’ll sort of leave you with this example. There was a guy that I went to school with really good friend of mine. He has like a portrait of Paul Revere in his house in Georgetown, Washington, DC. And I was like, why do you have a picture of Georgia of a Paul Revere? And he’s like, I don’t know, it’s my parents and his wife. Who’s also a good friend of mine was like, it’s just like, great, great uncle. So he’s American royalty. He just didn’t want to talk about it. And they like own an island off of Connecticut. I don’t know how many islands there are off Connecticut, but probably not a lot.

Jordan:

So if you own one, it says something about your family. They own the whole island. So like, this is a guy I thought I will never have as many connections as this guy who was born into this like aristocratic family. It’s just impossible. Well we’re still friends. And I look now and I go, wow. I just, I had my foot on the gas for 15 years. And he’s never thought about networking because he never had to. So I am very well connected compared to him now in pretty much every respect. And he was born into that elite club. So the, the message here, the takeaway here is if you keep your foot on the gas and most other people are playing, you’re playing a game. Most other people don’t even know exists. So if you have your foot on the gas, you don’t have to be burning the midnight oil.

Jordan:

You can be doing 15 minutes a day and you will still come out ahead compounded at the end of a decade or half a decade, compared to people that don’t even know what’s going on. It’s like if you went outside to walk every day for 30 minutes, instead of eating your lunch at your desk, you’re going to be a hell of a lot more fit after three years, then the people who’ve never been, you know, have never taken that amount of exercise, right? This is just the bare minimum amount. And it gets you so much further than everyone else because of the benefits of compound interest. So to speak when it comes to relationships. So for people who are overwhelmed, don’t be, there’s a system. The course has everything outlined, all the drills, the whole thing’s free. It takes six minutes a day. That’s the whole point, just start doing it now. And then like the rewards will come to you. There’s no need to sort of worry about you. You don’t have to fly to Las Vegas, to world of concrete every quarter to network in your field. You know, like that is a myth. And I w I’m glad we could bust that. Right. You know, those myths today.

Keith:

Well, amazing. Thank you so much. The someone’s asking if you could put the link in the chat, I think you for your recording,

Jordan:

Cause the coursework link is up above

Keith:

[Inaudible] finalists. Let me go ahead and put that to everybody real quick.

Jordan:

Oh, I see. I didn’t put the link to everyone. Okay. Sorry about that. And no problem. And so just say to the panelists and I’ve

Keith:

I’ve done this course, highly recommend it. It’s super easy. Really? I was doing it in bed to give you an idea of how, how easy it is. There’s so much, I want to ask you that we didn’t get to, but folks should just, I mean, Google, Google, Jordan. I wanted to talk to you about working with your wife. I mean, I I’ve interacted with her. She’s fantastic. And kind of dynamics of that. You’ve been kidnapped twice. I wanted to get to that. Didn’t have a chance to that. There’s so much interesting stuff in your background. Truly fascinating. Go to his website, check out the interviews that he’s done. I mean, this is what he does for a living. I say true pro. So please go to his website, check Kobe Bryant. I’m just amazing people that he’s, that he’s interviewed over the years. So Jordan amazing, amazing. Just honor pleasure for me. And I know everybody who attended enjoyed it as well. So thanks for

Jordan:

Thanks the opportunity, man. It was really a lot of fun. I wish everybody the best and I’ll see you in six minutes. Awesome.

Keith:

All right. Take care. Go on. Thank you.