Webinar: ‘An Interview with Brad Freyer – How to Hire, Train, and Retain Top Salespeople

Keith:

Thank you everybody for joining us today. I know some folks are still going to be joining as we go, but they’ll join us as soon as they can. I am Keith Wolf. I’m the managing director of Murray resources. We are a national recruiting firm here in Houston, and I’m also the CEO of resume spice. We are a career coaching and resume writing service also based here in Houston. And we work with clients all over the country. I’m very excited about today’s webinar. I’ve known today’s guests for quite a while. I was thinking back, it’s probably been about 10 years or so. I’ve personally been through his sales program. So I’m pretty knowledgeable about the topic that what he’s talking about today, because I’ve been through it myself. We can talk a little bit about that a little later in the webinar, but let me just talk about today’s webinar.

Keith:

And then I’m going to introduce Brad, who you see on your screen here. We’re, it’s a, it’s a great topic and I know it’s timely because the market is extremely hot. And probably the question that we get most often about any particular job function and hiring that function is salespeople. Salespeople are notoriously challenging to hire, train and retain. Okay. It’s a, it’s a simple question. How do you do that? How do you do that consistently? It’s, it’s very difficult to execute consistently. So I’ve been recruiting for about 10 years and that’s, that’s probably the most challenging hire for most companies. And we’re going to talk about why that is, and we’re going to talk about how to have a better process for doing so. So we’re going to spend most of our time in that area, but I know we also have people on this webinar who are interested potentially in a career in sales, whether it’s they’re early in their career or they’re transitioning from another function, they’re, they’re thinking about it.

Keith:

So how do they know if they are considering it, whether they might be good at it or what even a sales career really looks like besides what they might’ve seen in the movies, or they have a friend who that they’re not really sure what they do. I think they just hang out all day and that’s what sales is. If you’ve been on a previous webinar, you know, we do a pretty good job of keeping it to 60 minutes, Brad and I had a pre-call and there’s a lot we want to cover. And I don’t know that we’re going to be able to keep it to 60 minutes this time. So I always look at that as a bonus. If we don’t, then that’s just extra information, feel free to hang on. Or if you have to leave, that’s fine too. The, the webinars are always recorded.

Keith:

I always think it’s best to be on them live. I think you get more out of it. I think, you know, you can ask questions that we will answer live, and I think that’s a real benefit, but if you have to drop off, that’s understandable. So let’s get into it. But before we do, I just want to introduce Brad. So Brad, who you see on the screen, Brad fire with Sandler training, he’s been a part of Sandler since I believe 2003. He trains, he coaches, he consults with business owners and presidents, managers, sales people of all levels, and he helps them improve their performance. And so they can achieve their own goals and their company’s goals. So he’s got a great reputation here in Houston market and beyond he’s worked with small businesses like ours to fortune 100 companies. And so I’m honored to have him on, I’m really glad he’s agreed to do this, and I know we’re going to get a lot out of it. So thank you, Brad. And anything you want to add there about your background or introduction? I know the folks would love to hear it.

Brad:

Nah, I, I appreciate you having me. No, you know, I tend not to like to talk too much about the background in history because people will decide during the conversation if I’m worth listening to, but yeah, I’m a lifetime sales guy, you know, got into sales right out of college. Started in Sandler in 2003 2015 bought a manufacturing company, ran it for four years had an exit early in 2020, and couldn’t wait to get back into Sandler. So you know, in addition to doing the consulting and training, I’m, I’m still a failed guy at heart.

Keith:

So you’re in sailor when you left for a little bit, ran a company, had an exit, came back to sailor and you’re doing it again. Right? Sure. That’s great. Okay. So someone’s so much trying to, it says, if you can sell, you always have a job. So that is definitely true. All right, so let’s just start with this with hiring salespeople. What is it that makes it so challenging? Why is this such a challenge for most companies? You

Brad:

Know, that’s a question we get all the time and it’s a great one. I think some of the challenges start with a lot of business owners. A lot of managers, a lot of leaders don’t really know what the ideal candidate looks like, and doesn’t really know what they should be doing on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. Sales sales has always been that division of the company where, you know, it’s just kind of magic. You know, you hire people that you think are going to be great and then you leave them alone. And you, you hire based on gut feel and experience and resume. And so the hiring mistakes start with just people don’t know what they’re looking for. They oftentimes haven’t defined the ideal candidate and we’ll work a lot with companies and we’ll look at the entire sales team and go, well, clearly there was no method to the madness because it’s a whole mixed bag of nuts.

Brad:

And so you got to clearly define what it is that you’re looking for. What’s the ideal candidate, and then just have a good, solid interviewing recruiting and hiring process. Hiring salespeople is, is a lot different than hiring a, an accountant or a, an administrator or, you know, something where the job function is very straightforward. And so a lot of our clients, a lot of people we work with just aren’t skilled at interviewing salespeople, right? I’ve interviewed, gosh, I don’t know how many hundreds, if not thousands of salespeople over the years for clients. And I can count the number of bad interviews on one hand, salespeople do great jobs in the interviewing. In fact, that’s probably the best sales job most of them ever do is convincing people to hire them in the role. Right. And it takes skill to know and practice to know how to identify if someone can and will sell. Right. And it’s not just so straightforward questions that you have to ask.

Keith:

I don’t want to get into more of those questions and the process and the profile that I want you to be looking for, but just to sort of set the landscape, I guess, expectations for what success looks like, how many, which is what to expect. Every salesperson is not going to work out. So as a 90% retention rate within two years, good. I mean, what’s the expectation that you see in the marketplace. And I know there’s more turnover now just in general than there was 20 years ago, just with all functions, but what does success look like?

Brad:

Yeah. I mean, if you take the last 12 months kind of out of the picture, because a lot of salespeople have been displaced because of COVID and the market crash, or because their companies just didn’t have business for them to to be able to withstand. But, you know, the typical turnover for a sales role was around 30% which from my understanding was about two X. What a normal, a normal job function turnover would be. The bigger problem though, is that a lot of times we can’t identify early enough if a person is going to make it. And so you’ll see a lot of, a lot of resumes with salespeople who have 12, 18, 24 month job stents, and there’s a whole bunch of them back to back. And for, for me, it’s, it typically is a red flag because it takes 12 to 18 months for most companies to identify if a sales person’s going to make it, but you should be able to identify that much, much earlier. So salespeople have a, have a, have a tendency to be able to write out, you know, 12 to 24 months before anybody can even identify that they’re just not cutting it.

Keith:

So let’s, let’s go back to the profile for the second cause I’ve actually, we, you and I built a profile years ago for our sales team internally and went through that process. So talk a little bit about that because it’s, it’s not just simply pulling out a scrapbook and making some notes of what you’re looking for. It’s, it’s much more structured than that. So can you talk a little bit about what that looks like?

Brad:

Yeah. And so it’s, it’s a very daunting task when you think about it, because there’s a lot of data that you want to dump into defining the ideal candidate, but the good news is, is if you’ve done it once, it’s there for as long as you’re in that role, as long as you have the company. And so I encourage people just to invest the time upfront to, to define that ideal candidate, but it starts with identifying what are the job functions? You know, there’s a lot of different kinds of sales roles from, you know, pure hunters to farmers, to inside sales, to outside sales, to account managers. And there’s a lot of different names and titles that go along with it. And so you’ve got to identify what it is that you’re looking for for your team. What does your company need? Because if you’re too agnostic, then you’re going to interview 10 people and you’re not going to be able to identify which one really fits the job functions that you need.

Brad:

But then within each job function, you know, we’ve got a search model which are, you know, understanding the skills that are needed for that job function, understanding the experience that we’d ideally like to see, you know, what’s the attitude associated with that job function. What’s the cognitive skills that we want to be able to identify in the world, the habits that they’ve illustrated in the past, or that they currently have to show that they can do that job function on a regular basis. And it can be a very big grid. It can be a big Excel spreadsheet, but once it’s there, not only do you have a clear understanding of what you’re looking for, but you can actually use that tool as an objective way to measure people in the interview and hiring process.

Keith:

Yeah. And even what you mentioned about inside versus outside, I mean, those are two different skillsets and sometimes companies will start someone on an inside basis, they’ll have success and they’ll go so short promotion to an outside salesperson and they’ll fall on their face because it really is a different type of type of individuals that different types of sale sale sell. So no, I think that’s, that’s really important. So you’ve got, now you’ve got the template, you’ve got the profile, you know what you’re looking for, take us through for the next step, sort of an ideal process. If you could do everything you wanted to in a, in a hiring process for a sales person, it’s not always possible, but if you could, what would you do?

Brad:

Yeah. I mean, obviously the resume is the first place to start, but I don’t put a lot of weight into resumes. I mean, you probably are the expert at that. I mean, at the end of the day, people can put whatever they want on the resume. You know, you might use it as an initial qualified or disqualified, or if it’s an absolute train wreck, but resumes, that’s just kind of the high level bar of entry from there. You know, I encourage folks to do an initial phone screen just to see if the person as punctual, see if the person can carry on a conversation, see if they’re articulate and, and you’d like the way that they speak to be able to represent your organization. I think having a couple of folks in the organization that are going to interview the candidates is important to get different perspectives, whether it’s a an executive, a VP of sales and sales manager maybe it’s a team leader on the sales team, but give everybody that search matrix to know what it is that we’re looking for and, and allow each person to have a job function within the interview process.

Brad:

You know, what am I looking for when I’m doing the interview? What are you looking for when you’re doing the interview so that we can come back and compare notes? And what I don’t want to hear are things like, you know, I liked it. I liked her, you know, she was, she was really nice, really personable, you know, that’s the bare minimum. I mean, if you don’t like them, but they don’t make you feel good, then they should never go to the next step. Right. Right. But I also encourage people to have you know, an assessment tool and there’s, there’s dozens of them out there and it doesn’t matter which one you use, but find one that works for you and the assessment tool is a great way to kind of pop the hood and get some of the diagnostics behind the scene.

Brad:

And then I usually use that information as a final interview. I love running final interviews for my clients because I really put the candidates through the paces. Cause it’s not that first question that you ask. It’s usually the second or third question underneath that first question where you begin to find out the truth. You know, when, you know, if you need someone who’s a prospector and I asked, you know, Hey, tell me about your prospecting experience. And they say, Oh, I love, I love making cold calls. I make them all the time first red flag, right? Because the only people that like making cold calls are people that don’t do it. So when someone says, when someone says that they like making cold calls, I typically will challenge them. I’ll say, great. I’m the prospect UBU ring, ring, ring, hello, this is Brad.

Brad:

And I want to put them on the spot and see how they respond. You know, I don’t care if they have a great script, if they have a great approach, but I want it to sound like they’ve done it hundreds of times before, you know, I might ask them, Hey, when you make cold calls, what are some of the top objections that you hear? Oh, you know, they always tell me that we’re happy with who they have. Great. Let’s play that out real quick. I’m the prospect, you know what I appreciate you calling, but we’re happy with who we have. And once again, I don’t, I’m not overly concerned their technique because that can be taught. What I want to hear is that they’ve done it, that they have an idea of how to respond, but they don’t panic because prospecting and sales is a pressure cooker environment. And if they can’t, if they’re telling me things, but their actions don’t back it up, you know, then that just qualifies them. You know, I’ve got two daughters and I always tell them when it comes to boys and to, to guys that are interested and I say, never listened to what the guys say, pay attention to what they do.

Keith:

I like that as someone with three daughters I’m listening closely for any advice struggling. Well, let’s go back to the, a couple of things. So you mentioned assessments and we’re not gonna, you know, we, we don’t sell these assessments, but I know folks always ask me and I’m sure they ask you to, can you just give a couple of names of ones just for folks who haven’t heard of any and that they want to maybe look at?

Brad:

Yeah. I mean the two that I’m most familiar with because we use them and, and, and, and work with our clients on our OMG and an outmatch, but I mean, there’s, like I said, if a company hires me and they already have an assessment tool in place, I have no interest in ser planning. It is the key is, is to have one that you feel comfortable with one that you know, how to clearly read it, and more importantly, understand how to use it as a tool in the interviewing process and the hiring process onboarding and coaching that person once you’ve got it.

Keith:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we we’ve, we’ve got some internally that we use as well, and there’s Birkman and there’s PI predictive index is another one. So folks can look at it all. Yeah. And I think it’s also important to know how your current sales team, you know, take the superstars and assess them and see how they’re doing. And you want to sort of model that, you know, that could be helpful.

Brad:

Now there’s a danger there though, because, and a lot of times we get led astray by trying to emulate or, or clone our, our, our top producing salesperson. Keep in mind that sometimes you have salespeople on your team that for all practical purposes should not be able to sell, but for whatever reason they’ve achieved it, they’ve accomplished it. Whether it’s some astronomical internal drive, whether it’s, they, they landed a couple of key accounts because of relationships and whether they just got lucky. So you have to be careful not to take your top producer and say, okay, how do we clone this person? Because especially if you’re an entrepreneur, you know, if you’re an entrepreneur and you’re the top sales person for your company, and you want to emulate you or clone you, that’s not going to happen. Right. You know, those, you can’t find someone, you typically can’t find someone who has

Keith:

What you do. Right. Let’s just, I’m going to stick on this topic just for another, another minute or so. Cause I do get a lot of questions on this. So how important is taking a couple of traits extra-virgin versus introversion? And another one is, you know being utilitarian. So being one of you’re making sure that things actually get to the end state that things get completed and you’re, you know, you’re not okay with things being up in the air. You want to cross the finish line and close the deal. So those are two traits. I hear a lot. What’s your thought on those?

Brad:

Yeah. You know, introvert extrovert. I don’t think that is something that particularly matters. I think it has more to do with internal drive. You know, if you have an internal motivation anybody can play any role. If their, why is big enough if they have enough motivation. I don’t particularly like people in, in, in large and large large groups. I like, I like a few handful of friends. If I go to networking events, it’s one of the least favorite things that I do, but I have drive to be successful. And so I make myself do the things necessary to achieve success. So I think that internal motivation is, is probably one of the biggest pieces as far as seeing things through. As long as I understand the way that you’re stating it, you know, I do want someone who doesn’t let things fall through the cracks, but I also want them to have a good, still a good skillset and understanding qualifying and questioning and controlling the process because there’s, there’s salespeople out there that have this belief that, you know, my job is to pursue relentlessly, to follow up, follow up, follow up.

Brad:

And that tends to lead to a ton of wasted time where if you’ve got people who have the ability and the skillset to qualify clearly to ask good questions, to identify whether someone’s qualified or disqualified and control the process either to an opportunity or to a disqualification, that’s more of what I’d be looking for.

Keith:

Got it. That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And that’s a tough skill, I dunno. Is that, is that learned or is that natural?

Brad:

No, I think it’s, it’s both right. You know, there’s some people that are naturally inquisitive. There’s some people that have learned from, from childhood and, and I think I think Cameron, Harold even mentioned it in your last podcast, you know, their skill sets that we have, there’s attributes that we have from childhood. He was referring specifically to leadership. You know, if you’re a leader you’re likely you likely have been a leader since the age of eight, right. And boy Scouts or in high school or in college. And so you’re going to continue to carry that skillset or, or that drive to be a leader being naturally inquisitive being humble, making it less about you and more about the other person, those things can be inherent, but you also can learn. I mean, there’s, there’s a ton of training out there, including Sandler training, where we teach a process to, to asking questions and it, if you do it enough, you begin to trust that the process works and eventually it becomes part of your day.

Keith:

Hmm. Got it. Well, how, how important kind of staying on the, I know it’s such a common cliche question. Am I going to ask it, you know, salespeople born or, you know, can, can they learn it, but how important it is and feel free to answer that if you want, if anybody is interested in that, I don’t want to leave them hanging if you do have an answer, but how important it is, previous sales experience, do you find, you know, if you’re hiring, is that something, does it depend on the company? Does it depend on the industry or what’s your thought on previous sales spirit experience?

Brad:

I think if you’re an industry that is very technical and the learning curve, just to understand the industry, to understand the specifications, to understand the dynamics, I think there is some value to understanding the specific industries, but, but I would also say as a cautionary tale, just because someone has experienced in your industry or has experienced doesn’t mean that they’re going to succeed. You know, if, if, if they’re not succeeding where they are, what makes you believe they’re going to succeed in your organization? You know, they could be retreads. They could be people that just they’re they’re job hoppers and they’re, they, they leverage that experience and that Rolodex in hopes of landing the next job. So if, you know, I’ve, I’ve found a few folks over the years that were diamonds in the rough because, and you can find them in obscure places. I mean, I hired a kid who was who was my personal trainer because he, he, he held so many of the attributes that I knew would lead to him being successful in any job function. But I thought specifically in sales, and so after you’d known him for a year and a half or so, I was like, man, any interest in going into sales and you know, any, and he took, it took advantage of the opportunity.

Keith:

So when you are hiring someone and going through the process, you’ve built a template and you talked a little bit about interview questions. We get this question a lot, you know, what are some of your favorite things to ask? You talked about, you know, following up and asking the second and third question, but just, you know, what, what are some of those questions that you think are helpful in assessing candidates? Yeah.

Brad:

I, I love understanding their perspective on a lot of things. I love understanding the perspective on what the job function is. I love understanding what they believe. I love asking questions. You know, if you were in my shoes and you were hiring a sales candidate, what are the top five attributes you’d be looking for? Then I ask them why and dig deeper into how does that, you know, how does that result in success? And then I asked them to score themselves on a scale of zero to 10 on each of the five that they shared. You know, and I’m looking for a lot of different things. I’m looking for humility. I’m looking for people that are overly polished and prepared, and that I’m going to challenge them. I love putting people on the spot and asking them to role-play. I’ve had people that I’ve, I’ve slid my phone across the table to and said, Hey, let’s make some cold calls.

Brad:

Just want to hear them, hear them, hear how they deliver it, see if they have that fear, right. Because a lot of salespeople, the biggest problem they have is just the inability and unwillingness to pick up the phone and make dials or to prospect. I love about how they manage their time. No. How do you, how do you block out your day? How do you manage your time? How do you make sure that you’re giving the attention to your customers, but also prospecting and follow ups and proposals? And if they, if they’re very stringent on how they say they manage their time, I’ll often ask them if they mind sharing me, sharing with me, their calendar, I’ll say, Hey, do you have your calendar on your phone? Can I just kind of see what’s on it? And I want to see if they’re lying or not. Right. I want to see if they’ve got time blocked for, you know, follow-up meetings and for prospecting and for, you know, whatever the activities are, but I want to see a calendar that has stuff on it.

Keith:

That makes sense. And so now you’ve gone through that process and now you’ve, you’ve made the hire. Let’s just one step before that. Do you do reference checks? Do you, do you think that’s an important part of your process?

Brad:

You know, I do think it’s an important part to any hiring process, but I also take it with a grain of salt. You know, if someone asked me in the sales process, Hey Brad, can I get a couple of references to speak to? I mean, who am I going to give them? You know, I’m not going to give them people that are, you know, did you want the good list or the bad list, right. You know, they’re going to call people who are going to say, Oh my God, Brad is amazing. Oh my God, Sandler training is the best thing since sliced bread. So you have to take that with a grain of salt. But yeah, I encourage it because every once in a while you’ll find, you know, you’ll, you’ll find that cautionary tale from someone who’s been burned by them. Oh my God. Stay away from this person. Now, granted, you have to take that with a grain of salt as well. You don’t want to take them solely as a, as gospel.

Keith:

Yeah. I’ve always found that on reference checks, asking if it’s someone who’s managed that person tips for managing them, because then some of the watch outs will come out and not necessarily, you wouldn’t hire them, but you’re also, if you’re gonna be managing this person, it’s helpful to know how to be effective. And so okay. So now you, through the reference check, you’ve made the hire. What about onboarding? I mean, what are some mistakes that companies make when they’re bringing somebody on to ensure that they’re going to be successful and then, and then we’ll get to, okay. Now, what, what are you doing in those first 30, 60, 90 days? So it’s not 18 months or two years later before, you know, if they’re doing a good job. So

Brad:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so, so with any job in any company, you need to have an onboarding process. You know, you need to show that you’re organized, you need to show a roadmap for success. And that starts with day one, right? Who do they talk to? What are those person’s responsibilities? Who do they talk to on day two? What are they learning? Because you don’t want somebody showing up and just wasting time. And so, and once again, it takes time to develop that process, but once it’s created, you had it. So having a clear onboarding process, that’s going to include procedural training, process, training, product training. But I also want them to begin activity. I want them to begin prospecting. I want them to begin farming their network. I want them to begin utilizing the tools at their disposal. One of the biggest mistakes I see companies make is that they will tell a new sales person, Hey, this is a rough industry.

Brad:

Sometimes it takes six to 12 months to get up to speed. That’s a horrible, horrible practice because what have you just told them, Hey, for six months, I really don’t expect anything from you. In fact, you may have 12 months, you know, I’m going to tell my salespeople, you know, in our world, there’s, there’s no reason why you can’t be booking appointments within 30 days. There’s no reason why you can’t be delivering proposals within 60 and closing business within 90. You know, I want to, I want to create expectations of tempo, of activity, of success, right out of the gate, rather than somebody who’s going to show up and go, I got time. I’ll get to that later. Yeah.

Keith:

And so what have you seen, I’m talking about the process maybe is it, they, is it the standard phone calls, emails now there’s LinkedIn, which, you know, 20 years ago there wasn’t what sort of activities are we talking about? And which ones do you think are these days more valuable?

Brad:

Yeah. You know, w what we, what we try to encourage folks to do is identify what the end goal is, right? How many, how many sales do you need them to make? How many presentations and proposals are they going to need to present to get that many closes? How many qualifying conversations are they going to have to have to get to that many proposals? How many initial conversations and so on down the road to figure out what volume of prospecting activity am I going to need to achieve those goals? Now, when you talk about prospecting activities, there’s a lot that goes into that recipe, right? You know, it can be cold calling. It can be networking. It can be spheres of influence, where you’re talking to other people in sales who sell to similar type companies. You know, we’re talking about referrals, we’re talking about LinkedIn messaging, email, blast newsletters becoming an expert in the industry as a, as a speaker, as a published author, you know, you might have, you know, eight to 10 different activities that are the recipe for that, for that success.

Brad:

But what’s most important is identifying the cadence for those activities and holding people accountable to the behaviors and not necessarily worrying about the results in the beginning, right. You know, Nick Saban, Nick Saban is Alabama head coach is very well-known for his belief that we don’t worry about the scoreboard. We worry about every person doing their job on every play. And if we can achieve that, the scoreboard will speak for itself. And sales is very much the same. I need my people doing outbound activity every single day. Now, now what volume and what types of activities? Well, that’s going to depend on industry experience, you know verticals, et cetera, but I want to know what they’re going to be doing on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. That’s going to be feeding the top of the pipeline so that we can begin to predict what’s going to come out of the bottom.

Brad:

And that’s, that’s one of the biggest issues that, that people who are trying to build a sales team, that’s one of the biggest issues that they fail at because they don’t know what to hold sales people accountable to. They want to hold them accountable to results, but results are a lagging indicator. By the time you realize there’s no results, you know, you’re six, 12, 18 months into it. And now you’re trying to make up lost time, right? The leading indicators are the behaviors and the activities, you know, so we want them to do in the behaviors and activities. And then while they’re doing those behaviors and activities, we want to make sure they’re doing them well, am I listening to their cold calls? Are they recording their cold calls? Are they listening to what the message sounds like? Because a lot of people will make cold calls and go, Oh, this doesn’t work.

Brad:

I mean, hell, I’m responsible for that. I’ve made, I I’ve, I’ve made thousands of cold calls. And, you know, in the very beginning I had minimal success, not the whole cold calling doesn’t work. And someone told me a mentor told me, we record your calls. So I go to, you know, go buy a digital recorder, plug it into my phone. And I start recording my calls. And what I realized was that the calls themselves weren’t bad. I was bad. I wouldn’t have bought from me. Right. My tempo was too fast. I sounded nervous. They couldn’t understand me. My messaging was bad. And so you have to work on the skills. Yeah.

Keith:

I think for a lot of sales managers, that’s a difficult thing because I mean, nobody wants to be that micromanager at the same time, you also want to hold people accountable and you also want to be able to, to listen and, and, and to give them, you know you know, advice that’s going to help them and be valuable to them. So how do you, you look like you’re, that was a hot button for you. So

Brad:

It really is. Cause I hate it. When people say Brad, I’m not a micromanager. Yeah. Cause my response is typically, does that mean that you don’t like to hold people accountable? Because when I, when people tell me Brad, I don’t want to be a micromanager. What they’re really telling me is I don’t want to be responsible for holding my people accountable because those are two substantially different things. You have to hold people accountable. And if that makes you feel like you’re a micromanager, you might be in the wrong role. You know, you have to invest time with your people. You have to practice with them. You have to role play with them. You have to be comfortable role-playing and practicing. You’ve got to go first as a sales person and let them go with this prospect. First, you have to be able to check their call sheets every day or at the end of each week. Talk about what did they accomplish that week? Where are they having success? Where are they falling short? Because if we’re not on top of their behaviors in the beginning, it’s only going to get worse. You rarely see somebody start off as a dog and then, you know, take off. Right, right. You always see people start off strong and then begin to fade. So somebody is struggling.

Keith:

What’s your thought on performance plans? And you know, when is, when is too early to do it, is there, you know, when, when do you, do they ever work? People come back from that know what’s your thought on those?

Brad:

Yeah. I mean, I think performance plans work for a lot of reasons. Number one is that, you know, if, if you’ve ever fired a person and they were surprised, then that’s a failure as a leader because we failed to, to express to them that they haven’t been performing in a manner that’s consistent with what we needed to see. And so first of all, reflect on yourself if you’ve ever fired someone and they were surprised you failed them as a leader. So we’ve got to be in constant communication to let them know, are they on track? Are they off track? Where are the adjustments that need to be made? And if they’re not willing to do the behaviors that we know it’s going to take to be successful, then we have to tell, we have to point that out. We have to show them, you know, what I often will say to someone is look from the very beginning.

Brad:

I told you what was expected. You’re not doing the minimum. That’s expected to be successful in this role. So for the next 30 days, one of two things are going to happen. You’re either going to begin to do those activities to, to to a level that’s acceptable. Or what you’re telling me is that you’re not committed to success in this role. And when I say tips or performance plans can work for many reasons, sometimes they take that as a hint that you know what, yeah, I’m not cut out for this role. I better start job hunting. And two weeks later they’re telling you, yeah, I’m quitting and save you from having to lay people off. But Cameron, Harold also said something that I thought was great and I wish I had written down the quote, but it was something along the lines of if you, if you have doubt, then there is no doubt. Think something like that, basically. Meaning if you doubt that this person is going to be successful, then you’ve already in your mind switched gears to this person who’s going to fail. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you start treating them differently and you start treating them poorly or maybe passive aggressive or right. Right. Yeah, absolutely.

Keith:

Yeah. Well, that’s something we haven’t talked about is compensation. So I know there’s a lot of different ways to compensate salespeople. Can you give some different ways and some advantages and drawbacks of the different ways that you’ve seen to compensate?

Brad:

That’s a great question. I work with a lot of companies on developing comp plans or refurbish and comp plans. Yeah. One of the biggest mistakes that companies make is they build comp plans to solve today’s problems, but they don’t think about how that comp plan is going to look 12 months, 24 months, 36 months down the road. Once the sales person started to be successful or things have changed. And the next thing, you know, we’re overpaying or based on what our perception is. And so then we come in and adjust it downward. And anytime you take something away from someone they’re going to resent it and that’s going to be a problem. So obviously in sales, a big piece of the comp plan depends on their job function. If they’re an account manager, that’s a very different comp plan than a Hunter versus someone who’s responsible for soup to nuts, you know, prospecting to closing.

Brad:

Obviously you’ve got a couple of key pieces. You’ve got base salary, a base salary salaries, often commiserate of experience level of person that you’re trying to bring in. One of the, one of the worst arguments I hear companies make is, well, if there’s such good salesperson, shouldn’t they be willing to work for less? And the answer is no. If they’re a successful salesperson, you can have a, a large portion of their income be at risk that they have to earn, but you also have to compensate them for being successful. And haven’t gotten to where they are. It’s it’s mutual investment. If I’m going to invest my time to earn that at-risk portion of income, you as a business owner, as a company, need to invest in what you see in me to encourage me to do what I need to do. Yeah. And so, you know, the, the base the base salary is a number that’s going to be dependent on what you’re looking for, what your industry can bear and and experience.

Brad:

And then you’ve got the at-risk portion and the at-risk portion typically falls into two buckets. One is, one is commission, right? And you have to figure out commission based on what should that cost of a sale be for what you’re producing or what your, you know, what you’re delivering. And you’d have to come up with that percentage, right? If they’re going to produce $5 million in revenue, then you know, a comfortable cost of a sale is 3% or whatever that number is. And then you can reverse engineer how the comp plan has built. Yeah. So you’ve got base salary, you’ve got commission. And then there’s also a piece that you can make, which is a bonus which can be managed an MBO managed by objective KSL key sales objective. But that piece is intended to continue to incentivize the good behavior, right? Because I want salespeople to continue to do the behavior that caused them to be successful.

Brad:

Yeah. You know, it could be, it could be prospecting behaviors. It could be, you know, going out and doing lunch and learns networking events. But that piece, the MBO SKO bonus pool needs to be things that are completely in their control. Yeah. It needs to be things that they can control and they either earn that, that spiff or they don’t. And, and I often encourage people to make that something that’s not written into the comp plan, but as an addendum that can change from year to year based on what you need the salesperson to do differently next year, or maybe some of the, some of the the company objectives or initiatives, you know, if your company is trying to break into a new vertical, well then maybe one year that spiff or bonus is going to be the amount of calls they make into that vertical or the amount of appointments they have in that vertical. Right. Because we want to drive that direction. We want to incentivize good behavior. Yeah.

Keith:

Yeah. And I always think it’s a good idea to get a second pair of eyes out, maybe outside of your company on a compensation plan, because I’ve seen companies put something together and there’s some perverse incentives that salespeople maybe not even intentionally, but they know they’re going to do whatever it is that makes them the money. And it may not be the types of activities that you were hoping that they would do, but they’re going to figure that out. It’s just human nature and not just people, but they’re having to be really good at it, but humans do that. So yeah.

Brad:

Yeah. The path of least resistance, I mean, that human nature is to find the path of least resistance. And if they can figure out a way to game the system to gain the comp plan, they will, they might take time, but they’ll figure it out. You know, Cameron mentioned also in his podcast with you about bringing in an outside resource to assist with interviewing assist with building comp plans, because if you don’t have someone who has that specific skill set within your organization, to be able to identify it, to be able to, to make it successful, there’s no, there’s no harm in bringing someone into, to supplement the process to help, to ensure success.

Keith:

Yeah. And you talked a little bit about changing comp plans and I know that’s, you know a sensitive topic for salespeople. Nobody, nobody enjoys that process, but sometimes, you know, what works today, five years later, isn’t the right sales plan or comp plan. Right? How, w what are some of the tips or best practices for, for changing a comp plan, you know, not intending to drive people off, but the business just might’ve changed or the process might’ve changed. Yeah.

Brad:

I mean, the biggest thing you have to ask yourself is why do you feel like there needs to be a change? I’ve had, I’ve had business owners who say, I feel like I’m, I’m paying my salespeople too much. And that’s the worst reason, right? Because your sales people should be some of the highest your, your successful salespeople should be some of the highest paid people in your organization, and you should be willing to give them as much money as they earn if they continue to produce and drive the business in the right direction. But if you decide that you’re going to make changes, understand that there’s going to be fallout from it. You know, if you’re going to make a substantial change, you’re probably going to lose people

Keith:

Rightly or wrongly.

Brad:

And so, you know, I would be very slow and making those changes, but make sure that you understand the why, and don’t change the comp plan to something that’s going to solve a problem today, but create problems three years down the road to where you’re going to have to do it all over it.

Keith:

Yeah. Right, right. Okay. So I promise we get to the job seeker side as well, and we officially have 20 minutes left. Although I already said, we may run over, I do want to just point out that we have a chat box. If you have questions, I don’t know that a single person has dropped off so brag that you’re keeping them interested in the topic. And I know a lot of people have so much interest in that. So you have questions, don’t be shy, we’ll answer your questions. So pop them in, in the chat box. And I’ve also taken the questions that, that you submitted when you registered. And so we were trying to address all those as well throughout. So but let’s, let’s talk about the job seekers side. Okay. And then we’ll, if anybody has questions on the employer side, we’ll of course answer those as well, but let’s switch over. So job seekers whether they’re earlier in their career or they’re you know, in a role, whatever it may be, maybe they’re in marketing, or maybe they’re in operations or some other function. And they’re interested, curious about a role in sales. What is sales and what is, what is sales, not, you know, what, what, you know, what do people sort of have misconceptions about sales? What would those be?

Brad:

The biggest misconception is people who work in an office for a company and they never see the salespeople. Or when they hear about the salespeople, the salespeople are out to dinner, or they’re having a nice lunch or they’re playing golf, or they’re doing something like that. And so the misconception misconception is that that’s successful. Salespeople have an easy life, and, but it’s all, you know, it’s all glad-handing and, and entertainment. That’s the biggest misconception because those people typically are doing a lot more work than, than, you know. But also they didn’t just end up there. Right? They weren’t born on third base. Sales is a, for a lot of companies you know, a 24, 24, seven job, you know, whereas if I’m a data entry person, I do my data entry from eight to five. I punch the clock. I go home.

Brad:

I don’t worry about it anymore until the next morning sales of the job. Especially if, if the comp plan is such that you’re, you’re, you’re the heavy portion of your income is driven off of performance. You’re always worried, right? You’re always, you’re always thinking about, you know, how do I keep my customers happy? How do I find new customers? How do I combat against the competition? You know, prospecting is a very difficult and humbling experience because sales is one of the few jobs, one of the few careers in the professional world where you get told no more than you get told yes. Where you deal with rejection, where you get treated poorly, where you get pushed aside ghosted you know dejected. I mean, so it’s the, you have to have a strong sense of belief in yourself. You have to have a strong internal motivation and drive to success. You know, make sure that it’s something that you understand the work that goes into it. One of the biggest mistakes I see is that people get into sales because some point in their early life, maybe it was college, maybe it was high school. They, they, they were talking to someone and someone said, you know what? You have such a great personality. You should do.

Keith:

Yeah, no, yeah.

Brad:

I don’t care if you have a good personality. I don’t care if you’re the friendliest person on the planet. That doesn’t mean you’re going to succeed. Making friends is not sales, right. Some of the worst salespeople on the planet have friends, just all over the map, but friends don’t always buy from you. Yeah. You know, I want someone who’s got a strong backbone. I want someone who’s, who’s got the ability to be a chameleon, not being dishonest to who they are, but being adaptive to who the prospect needs them to be. Right. You know, you have to be adaptable. You have to be flexible. You’ve got to know when, to, you know, when to flex and when to have fixed scan. And you have to know when to use kid gloves and be delicate and sensitive. And, and that’s, that’s adaptability, right? You’ve got to be a learner because the learning process and sales is never ending.

Brad:

You know, I I’ve been in sales for, I don’t know, 25 ish years. And I still read, I still learn. I’ve still got mentors. I’ve still got a peer group that I bounce ideas off of. I mean, it’s, it’s always changing. I mean, in the last 12 months, look at how much it’s changed. And the salespeople that are struggling right now are the ones that refused to pivot. They refuse to accept the, the new circumstances and say, okay, I’ve got to do things differently than I did them in the past. The ones that are struggling now are the ones that bury their head in the sand and said, this too will pass. Well, guess what? It’s not, you know, what has happened. And what we’re in the middle of has changed the landscape of selling forever. Some things for the better, but some things for the worse or more difficult for salespeople. And so you have to understand sales is not an easy gig. It’s difficult.

Keith:

And you may have already answered this, but we did have a question that you kind of got to it a little bit, but you may have more to add to it. And Carolina was asking what made you such a successful salesperson? So I know, I know, you know, you’re pretty humble you know, sales people go, but you know, you have been successful. What do you think that’s been attributed to?

Brad:

No, I think that’s a great question. So I think I can, I can take it back to two or three key things. Number one is I accidentally stumbled into sales. I got out of college, had no clue what I wanted to do. Originally. I wanted to go to law school. I met with the Dean of South Texas law school. The first question that he asked me was, Hey, do you like to read? And I said, not really. And he said, law school is not for you. And that was as close as I got. So then I went to then I went and interviewed for a sales job and I got it. And I did a couple of things right out of the gate. Number one is I invested in myself. So I attended Brian, Tracy and Ziglar and spin and all those training sessions to learn tools and techniques.

Brad:

But I also found the people that I thought were successful. And I said, Hey, can I follow you? Can you tell me what you do? And so I was a sponge and I just, I’m not a smart person. And so if I can find a shortcut to the path for success, I’m going to take it. And so if someone said, Hey, Brad, do this. I wouldn’t question it. I wouldn’t go, wow. I don’t really know if that’s going to, I would just go, okay. And I go do that. Right. The other thing that I’ve always I’ve always kind of had in me is I always want to be the best at what I do. Whatever that definition is. And so if I’m honest, when I was on the sales team, I always wanted to be the best sales person on that sales team. You know, when I got involved in Sandler, I wanted to be the best Sandler you know, sandwich person in the world.

Brad:

And so I’ve always been driven. I wasn’t, I’ve never been money motivated. I’ve always been motivated by being the best and striving and anyone, when you, when you become really good at something, the money comes. And so that’s, that’s a nice byproduct. Right. but yeah, I think, I think humility to identify that you don’t know at all taking the time to continue to learn and just having that internal motivation to just keep trying to be better. I’m, I’m very fear motivated. I don’t ever want to take a step backwards. I always want to take a step forward. And so I built a natural trap for myself every year, because every year I succeed, I go, God, I can’t do less next year. So I gotta, you know, I gotta find a better way to do it next.

Keith:

Sure. Yeah. That makes sense. And so, you know, if, if you’re early on or considering a career in sales right now, and you kind of just didn’t stumble into it, but you’re seeking it out, what would you do? W what would you, what advice would you give somebody if they wanted to see, they were pretty confident. This is what they want to do.

Brad:

Yeah. number one is I would try to identify mentors or coaches or training, whether it’s investing in yourself, whether it’s working with a company that provides it for you, but also finding people that you view as successful people that you would aspire to be like, and just ask them, you know, you’d be amazed if you ask somebody, Hey, would you be my mentor? They are so honored and, and interested in helping others that they’re going to say yes. Now you have to drive the conversation with my mentors. You know, I always call, you know, I would get my teeth kicked in on a sales call and I’d call one of my mentors and be like, okay, this just happened. What did I do wrong? And they would coach me through it, but you have to be proactive. You have to drive it.

Keith:

Do you have a couple of questions going back to the employer side? That I, that I, I want to get into, I think they’re really good. So one is using a fractional sales organization. And I know that, you know, it’s a, that’s an option for some companies, so it’s not an inside sales team. It’s someone they use externally for those who haven’t come across that term. So what tips do you have to make that successful and things to avoid?

Brad:

Yeah, I’ve seen a lot of situations where fractional leadership has worked well, you know, they’ve, they’ve, they had people that, you know, you’re not quite ready to bring in a full-time VP or a full-time sales manager, and there’s fractional people that can help you build out the structure, build out the process, begin to hire. You know, there are organizations who are, you know, a rep agency where they’ll rep your product as well as others. And there are, there are formats that can work for that, but understand that you have to constantly be in front of them and on top of them, or else they’ll be thinking about other product lines that they represent as well. What I haven’t seen a whole lot of success with, and I have a few close acquaintances that are working with organizations, trying to get it dialed in are the outsourced prospecting organizations. I’ve seen a lot of people try and fail. And I haven’t seen a whole lot of success with, you know, outsource, you know, companies that, that prospect for you and promise you appointments. I haven’t seen a lot of success, but, but I, I don’t know what all is out there. Got it. I don’t know if that answered the question.

Keith:

I think so Robin, you want to follow up with that question with any other questions, feel free, but I thought did a pretty good job there. So we’ve got another question about the recruiting recruitment process, which is right up our alley. We’re saying this, and I think it’s a great question. So how to set up a recruitment process using online tools to find the best possible candidates personally, for me, face-to-face meetings were crucial to make a final decision to hire. Now it’s much harder. Any suggestions?

Brad:

Yeah. That’s a great question. A couple of things, if you’re a hiring manager in any role, you have to constantly keep a people bank and a people bank is, you know what? I might not be hiring now, but every time I find someone that I’m intrigued by, or that, that has the X factor, or, you know, I mean, I’ve had, I’ve had salespeople come in and sell me something. And I said, you know what? I liked the way you handled this engagement. I like the way that you’ve communicated with me, can I put you in my people bank? And if I ever have an open position, can I contact you? And of course they always say yes. So you’ve got to be finding talent and obscure places, know what you’re looking for. I think making sure that you have clearly identified the ideal candidate, so you know what to fish for.

Brad:

I’m not a fishermen, but I want to know how, and so I’ve got a couple of friends that are great fishermen, but what I’ve learned through going with them is that if I’m going to catch a flounder, I don’t just go out in the middle of the Bay and throw lines. There are specific areas where flounders are. If I’m going to catch a red fish, there’s specific areas that red fish prefer to habitate. And so if you, if you don’t know what you’re looking for, you don’t know where to fishing. You don’t know what Lewers to use. And so when it comes to writing ads Cameron, once again, last, last podcast was great. I agree, a hundred percent, not only do I tell people what I’m looking for in the ad, but I also tell them what I’m not looking for. Right. You know, don’t do not apply if you’re used to making excuses do not apply. If you think prospecting is hard, do not apply if you know, and so you really begin to define your culture, your belief systems in that, that ad in that ad writing, because that’s an important piece of the puzzle.

Keith:

What about what about video interviewing? Is that an important part of what you’re doing? And I mean, that’s, that’s something that most people never had to face in their, you know, their, their recruiting lives and we’d done some of it and I’ve seen candidates really struggle with it kind of taking the candidate perspective. And they’re really simple stuff, you know, lighting, looking at the camera. I’m not looking at the camera right now because I’m looking at the questions they ask. But being looking at the camera really is eye contact. So how important is video? Are you seeing a lot more video being done in the process?

Brad:

Yeah. I mean, a it’s, it’s a, a big piece of the process now because it’s a lot more time efficient. I might use it for one of the first one or two screening interviews, but then once you’re, once you’ve got a handful of candidates that you’re serious about, then start bringing them in. But look, if you’ve got a candidate specifically in sales who doesn’t know how to use the technology yet, who doesn’t understand, you know, front lighting versus backlighting, who doesn’t understand where the camera should be, who doesn’t understand that more important than the image is the sound. If they don’t understand those things, then you have to be a little bit concerned as to how well they’re pivoting and adapting to the new normal.

Keith:

Hmm. Okay. What about what about remote work? So a lot of salespeople have, have maybe always been remote, but the, some, you know, and there’s always this topic. Do you come into the office first then? Do you go out, you come in, unless you have a meeting and I know it’s structured different ways. Have you seen that affect how companies are approaching salespeople and if they’re in the office or remote with COVID. Yeah,

Brad:

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I mean, one of the things that we have to adapt to as a, as a leader is how do we manage remote? You know, it’s, it’s one thing to have your Salesforce remote, but it’s another thing to understand how you’re managing them remote, because if you had them across the hall or down the hall, and you had daily powwows, are you able to have the water cooler conversation or you could hear them making calls? You have to have more transparency with what’s going on on a daily basis and you have to change your cadence and your intent behind your communication with them. So I don’t think I don’t think remote selling is going away. But I do believe that we, as leaders have to adjust our style to recognize that the salespeople are going to need something different from us now than they did, you know, pre COVID.

Keith:

Got it. Got it. Okay. Let’s let’s just talk about a couple of the topics. I think we’re going to be on time. I see I think we’ve answered most of the questions, but tools and systems. I know you’re passionate about the systems you use to manage your own day to manage the sales process. So can you share that with folks on the webinar?

Brad:

Yeah, so, you know, the, the best analogy I use for how important it is to have a game plan, to have a process, to have routine, to practice, to rehearse. I use athletes all the time. And I specifically refer to Tom Brady because he’s, he’s the goat and everybody knows who he is. But when you hear quarterbacks in the NFL, once they’ve been in the league for a while, they say things like, you know, the game eventually slowed down for me. And what, what they mean when the game slowed down for them is that they had so many repetitions, so much practice, so much preparation that they could almost predict what was going to happen before it did. And so, rather than everything coming at them frantically, they began to predict what was happening and being a half step or a step ahead before it took place and selling, I believe is the same.

Brad:

If you have a process and a methodology that you follow, that you believe in, you don’t have to think while you’re on the sales call, which allows you to listen. And being an active listener is the most important thing to being a good sales person. You have to be in the moment, but the problem is most salespeople, you ask a sales person, Hey, what’s your process? And they say, well, you know, I kind of shoot from the hip. I go with my gut. I give I give back what the prospect gives to me. And that means they have no process and they’re not prepared. And so, you know, I believe in practicing, I believe in having a pre-call plan and we’re walking through, what are the key questions I’m going to ask? What are the key questions I’m going to be expected to answer?

Brad:

And how am I to handle those? You know, what are some good, healthy, next steps? And how do I create that at the end? But the more prepared we are, the slower, the slower the call goes, and the less emotion we’re going to get sucked into, because if we have high emotion, our intellect goes down, proportionately, the more emotional we get the dumber weekend. And so the more preparation we have, our emotions are down and we’re more engaged and good listening and being able to ebb and flow with the conversation. I’m also a huge believer in time-blocking, you know, time-blocking being, you know, what, what your priorities are in any given day, right? It’s not time management, it’s priority management. You can’t manage time, but you can manage what priorities go into your day. And so if, you know, you have to be prospecting. If you know, you have to do a count follow-ups if you know, you’ve got to be rehearsing and practicing, or role-playing put it into your calendar as an immovable object, right. Too often, people put, you know, I got two hours of prospecting here and two hours there, but something comes up and, Oh God, you know, so busy today. I didn’t get to do my outbounding. Well, that’s a cop out, right? Yeah. Yeah. Because if you, if you had a two hour appointment with a huge prospect and something came up, are you going to skip that meeting? No. So what you’re telling me is when you allow prospecting and those leading indicators to get pushed, they’re not a priority to you, right. Or you’re scared of them.

Keith:

Yeah. Yeah. I like all that. And the, the Tom Brady analogy also her, they did a, they did an experiment. They took a professional softball player and had her pitching against major leaguers major leaguers did not touch the ball, even though she wasn’t throwing quite as hard as they’re used to it’s because the angle she was coming at, they weren’t used to. So amazingly baseball player cannot hit the ball because it’s coming up fast and it’s easy to react. It’s because they’ve seen the rep so many times coming from this angle, you switch the angle, they couldn’t touch the ball. So it was just, it’s fascinating. A couple, a rapid, rapid fire real quick. So I like to ask folks about their favorite business books, leadership books, which, which ones have you picked up that you’ve enjoyed?

Brad:

You know I’m, I’m old school. I, I really, I listened to the experts and whatever they tell me to read, I tend to read what’s it, like I said, I’m not that smart, but you know, I mean, th th the good to greats E-Myth what got you here? Won’t get you there Carnegie seven habits that are not that’s Covey, Covey, seven habits of highly effective people. Carnegie’s how to win friends and influence people. I gave that one to my, my oldest daughter when she was a sophomore in high school and told her to read it. I mean, there’s, there’s some books that are just core. And if you haven’t read those, those top 10 start there I, I love extreme ownership. Sometimes I read for just the, the enjoyment. I recently read David Goggins.

Brad:

You can’t hurt me which is, he’s a Navy seal that went through army ranger training and all sorts of great story, very entertaining, but also he talks about how much, how much we’re capable of that. We don’t know, you know, whenever you think you’ve given it all, you’ve still got 40% more that you can give. And I think that’s a great message and business specifically in sales, because you have to be able to get out of your comfort zones to be successful. You’ve got to do things differently than you did on before to be more successful. And so there’s, there’s messages that you can take out of books like that.

Keith:

I love that. And, and I’m going to ask one more, just one more. If we got a second, if you could go back exactly three o’clock via, go back and give yourself one piece of advice when you’re starting off in your career, what would it be?

Brad:

That’s a good one. That’s a good one. You know, I would probably say do more of the hard stuff in the beginning. You know, when you’re, when you’re doing the hard work to build your business, when you’re doing the hard work to build your portfolio, whatever the, you know, the prospecting being cold, calling, networking, LinkedIn, you know, referrals, sphere of influence, whenever you’re in that routine, if you did just a little bit more early on the, the, the compounded interest over your career is going to be exponential. And so whatever you think is a lot, if you’re doing that, do just a little bit more

Keith:

That’s great advice. Yeah. It compounds right. The compounds. Yeah. Yeah. And by the way you’ll, you’ll appreciate this. So this is almost almost 10 years ago. The Sandler training that I went through that has red marks. I didn’t put those on today. Those are long ago. So so we’ll have that. We’ll have that here in the office. Well, thank you, Brad. Already got a note that this is one of the best presentations I have seen, and you’re a great presenter, great information, and I know folks are enjoying it, and I don’t know if anybody even even left. So thank you so much. I’m going to send an email out with the recording, so everyone will have that. You can send that to other folks on your, on your teams. I know there’s just so much, so much that folks can get out of this. Another fantastic presentation comment. So

Brad:

Love bringing you these. I would just like to say, you know, my name is on the screen, my name’s in the emails, you know, feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn. I put out videos about every week with some tips or ideas, love to have you you know, find value in those, if you can. Or if there’s anything that we talked about today, that’s of value, you know, you’re welcome to connect with me.

Keith:

Perfect. Perfect. Somebody already did. So yeah, we love bringing you these, these webinars. So if you enjoy them, all we ask is they’re free just for the links to your friends and colleagues when we send them out. And we just want to reach as many people as we can. So thanks everybody for attending. Thank you, Brad. And we will talk soon. Thanks everybody.

Brad:

Take care.